How To Negotiate To Relieve Stress with Dr. Karney
Dr. Benjamin R. Karney is a Professor of Social Psychology at the University of California, Los Angeles, and an adjunct behavioral scientist at the RAND Corporation. Dr. Karney has over 15 years of experience researching the cognitive and behavioral processes of relationships, focusing on marriage.
He has published numerous case studies focused on marriage and limiting stress. He graduated from Harvard University with a Bachelor of Arts in Psychology and earned both his master’s and a doctorate in social psychology from the University of California, Los Angeles.
Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learn:
Dr. Benjamin R. Karney discusses his research into the stress that impacts marital balance
The definition of a stress spillover: how anxiety can snowball into various forms
Why the stress of work can cross over to other parts of life
How the mindfulness that we do for ourselves, we can do for our partners
Building trust to reduce stress in our partnerships
How to discover the many strategies to use to overcome stress
The importance of negotiating for productive results
In this episode…
Why is it so hard to overcome stress in our lives? What do we do when it spills over into our relationships with our partners?
Outside stress can negatively impact our partnerships and marital balance. According to Dr. Benjamin R. Karney, a Professor of Social Psychology at the University of California, Los Angeles, stress affects our relationships because we have no direct access to each other’s experiences and feelings. We need to understand the unique values, desires, and preferences of others. When we recognize the stress in our relationships, we can begin to forgive, empathize, and improve them.
In this episode of Our.Love Podcast, Dr. Richard Safeer sits down with Dr. Benjamin R. Karney, Professor of Social Psychology at the University of California, Los Angeles, to discuss strategies to build trust. Dr. Karney talks about the impact of stress spillover in relationships, the importance of negotiating different desires, and overcoming the invisible stress of our partnerships.
Resources Mentioned in this episode
Sponsor for this episode
This episode is brought to you by “Our.Love Company.”
If you want to build a strong long-lasting relationship with your significant other and explore new-exciting ways to engage each other, download our Our.Love app today - it is free!
Go to www.our.love and sign up for the latest insights on all topics related to relationships and love! as well as Access to our app! It’s free.
Episode Transcript
Intro 0:03
Welcome to Our.Love Podcast, where we share insights from top scientists and relationship experts on all things about love that are out of the box, refreshing and new. Now sit back, grab a cold drink, or hot one if you prefer, and enjoy today's episode.
Destiny Martinez 0:25
Hello friends. Welcome toOur.Love Podcast. This is Destiny Martinez. Today I'm here with Dr. Rich Safeer, Medical Director Chief Medical Director of Employee Health and Well-being at Johns Hopkins Medicine (The views, information, or opinions expressed in this podcast presentation are solely those of Dr. Richard Safeer and do not necessarily represent those of John Hopkins Medicine or its employees. John Hopkins Medicine is not responsible and does not verify for accuracy any of the information contained in this podcast.). Rich is also one of the board members on our advisory board for Our.Love. Rich be interviewing today's guest with who is a renowned social psychologists and behavioral scientists. Before I introduce our guests formally, I would like to thank today's sponsor for today's episode. This episode is brought to you by Our.Love Company. If you want to build strong, long lasting relationship with your significant other and explore new and exciting ways to engage each other, download our Our.Love app today. It's free, go to www.our.love and sign up for the latest insights on all topics related to relationships and love as well as access our app. It's free. Now. Welcome our amazing guest today. Dr. Professor Benjamin Karney. Ben Karney is a professor of social social psychology at the University of California, Los Angeles, and is an adjunct behavioral scientist at the RAND Corporation. His research examines intimate relationships, especially marriage, and focuses on how relationship processes and interactions are facilitated or constrained by the context in which they take place. Now rich, take it away.
Dr. Richard Safeer 2:08
Great. Thank you so much destiny, Ben, it's great to see you again. We always have a great conversation.
Dr. Benjamin Karney 2:14
Good to see you too Rich.
Dr. Richard Safeer 2:15
So So Ben, I just want to make sure we recall the same way we met, it was about five or six months ago, I was helping my good friend and founder of Our.Love Tal Zlotnitsky Find some marriage experts who could give us some insight into great marriages, what's the secret and you and I got to talking and I was just so intrigued because my work at Hopkins (The views, information, or opinions expressed in this podcast presentation are solely those of Dr. Richard Safeer and do not necessarily represent those of John Hopkins Medicine or its employees. John Hopkins Medicine is not responsible and does not verify for accuracy any of the information contained in this podcast.), a large part of it is around culture building, which includes relationships. And obviously, marriages are probably the key relationship, one of the key relationships we have in our lifetime.
Dr. Benjamin Karney 2:58
That's true. I remember those conversations, we had some really good, good talks. And I think the focus, one of the things that we spend a lot of time on is what makes it Why is it so hard? relationship, people want to have good relationships, especially married people want to have good marriages. Nobody gets married, thinking this is gonna get divorced. I mean, most people get married because they really care about each other, and one and they care about the relationship lasting for a long time. So what we chatted about at that time was why is that goal, which is so common, so hard to achieve? Now, I was particularly intrigued
Dr. Richard Safeer 3:35
by your work around identifying and addressing stressors that impact the marital relationship. I'm wondering, is there one marital stressor that's really common or most common that almost every married copy couple goes through are not really rich? There's like dozens.
Dr. Benjamin Karney 4:00
I think it's more the latter not really rich, there's like does, you know every couple has the stressors in their lives. And that's going to be true of couples at every level of socio economic status, you know, so we in our lab, we study couples who are in poor communities. And they of course report a lot of stress with finances, right? If you're in a poor community, you're there because you don't have as many finances as some other people. So deciding how to spend money, deciding which bills you're going to pay, which bills you aren't going to pay, these are very stressful thing. How do you get health care? How do you get childcare? How do people manage two incomes and two jobs when they're also trying to maintain a household? Yeah, I could see that
Dr. Richard Safeer 4:51
being a stressor. Absolutely. You know, our employees who are financially challenged because of what going on in their homes also are under a great bit of stress. Then I'm wondering about first children like your first child. I know that was a big wake up call for my wife and I trying now to insert a third person entire relationship. What can you share with us about that first child? And what that does to marriages?
Dr. Benjamin Karney 5:27
Well, you know, the it's one of the most research topics in research scholarship on marriage, because it's such a major position. And no matter how many times you can say to couples, seriously, it's another planet, the planet of parenthood, it's very hard to prepare. And why is it hard to prepare? Well, one reason that this transition is so challenging is that both parents, and this is true of all stressors, both parents have access to their own experience, but no direct access to each other's experience. So when then, when your people are tired, there's, it's even harder to be aware of your other of your partner's experience, and an easier to be aware of your own experience. So it's the middle of the night, it's 2am, your baby's cry. And what happens in the minds of a couple of both two parents, two new parents, well, each of them say, I understand perfectly well how tired I am. I understand perfectly well how much I need to get up in the morning and how much sleep I need to get. I'm not quite as sensitive to I don't have as much access to how tired you are, or what your needs are tomorrow. And so in the moment, I'm thinking, this should be my turn to be taken care of you go take the baby. Unfortunately, if we both feel that we were both super in tune with our own needs. No, now we're in our arm wrestle about who takes care of the bees, we get 100%? Who's gonna do it? I see you in front of me, why don't you do it, but you see me and think I should do.
Dr. Richard Safeer 7:03
So it's interesting, because you what you just did is not only did you reflect on the stressor of a new child, but you brought in an additional stressor of lack of sleep. So you have a compound and stressor. And even without kids, I'm sure that's the lack of sleep can cause put stress on marriages.
Dr. Benjamin Karney 7:25
Well, that's the thing. There's never just one stressor is that stressors, any stressor you can name takes place in a context of other stressors. So some people have a new baby. And they don't have a lot of support outside the home. They live far away from family and a more mobile world that we live in, where people live far away from their extended family. So now you have a new baby, but you don't have a lot of support. So now you've got two stressors, the new baby, the lack of support. And then here's the third stressor, jobs that still need you to show up, and bills that still need to be paid. So there's a fourth stressor. Some people have it easier. They live close to a rich network, they got lots of people that support them, they got flexible jobs. I mean, Rich, I don't know about you, but my job is very flexible, I have to get things done. But I can choose my hours. So if my child needs something, I can adjust easy. Not everyone has that flexibility. And that's another stressor.
Dr. Richard Safeer 8:26
It's so interesting that you mentioned jobs as a stressor. Because, you know, we think about that as an individual like my job stressful. But you know, if you put on the employers hat, as an employer, you really ought to be thinking about what kind of relationships stress are my employees under that might not only be impacting their health, but their ability to show up at work. And it almost feels like people can get into this vicious cycle, right? Because they're having troubles in their marriage, they show up to work, they can't do their job because they can't think straight, then they start getting into trouble at work. And they come home stressed, because their boss is saying, hey, you're not doing your work. It just sounds like a setup for a complete disaster.
Dr. Benjamin Karney 9:12
Well, it is. And it actually has a name. That phenomenon has been studied so much. It has a name, and the name of it is to meet stress spillover. The idea is that stress in one domain of your life spills over and makes other domains of your life more stressful, which is exactly what you described. But there's another step to stress spillover, which is it has another name, which is stress crossover. Stress spillover is when I'm stressed at work, and I come home and now I'm stressed at home. Stress crossover is when I'm stressed at work. I come home and now you're stressed at home. My stress crosses over to make your life less pleasant. That that
Dr. Richard Safeer 9:57
just so resonates because I talk to some of our employee forums about that, about how when you leave work at the end of the day, you really, if you do have stress, you want to try not to bring it into the house that you need to just park the car, or when you get off the bus and you're walking to to your home, just take a few minutes to reset yourself, because you're really going to be setting yourself up for a much better relationship with your spouse, if you can walk through those doors with with an even playing field.
Dr. Benjamin Karney 10:31
I totally agree. I think that's great advice. But it's hard to do. Yeah, for two reasons. One is, it's hard to do because people aren't always aware of how stressed they are. A lot of times that stress is invisible. So, you know, I knew I had a bad day at work. But once I get home the work is I can't see it. The work is in the past. And its effects on me aren't always obvious, even if they're there. That's, that's that's one problem. The other problem is that, that if I'm stressed, it's harder to take your advice. Because the more stressed I am, the harder it is to say, Oh, wait, I'm supposed to take a deep breath. I'm supposed to do this. There's like there's some rules as was to follow up. Right? Right. those rules could have gone out the window. You know, it's
Dr. Richard Safeer 11:21
the whole breath, breath. And I was thinking it before you said it. And you know not that we're gonna go off on the tangent about mindfulness, but how much that's helped me in my life, to feel like the muscles in my body to feel if I'm holding my breath. So that I am is cognizant of how my body is feeling before I initiate that reconnection with my spouse at the end of the workday.
Dr. Benjamin Karney 11:47
I think those are great habits. I think that mindfulness has a lot to offer. And but then there's and then if you're in a relationship, there's another piece to it. Which is, this is something we can do for our partners. So sometimes I might not know how stressed I am. But I'm not the only one in the room. My partner can be the reminder can say, hey, it seems seems like you've had a hard day, why don't you take a minute, why don't you take a minute to yourself, you take a deep breath, or I want to take care of the kids so that you can do this for a while, you know, when you feel relaxed, come on join us, like the mindfulness reminder that we hope people do for themselves. And we do help people do for themselves is also something we can do for our partners.
Dr. Richard Safeer 12:36
What a gift to help your partner just pause and reflect on whether or not they're feeling stressed. So So tell me though, I've heard of scenarios where one of these partners is home with the kids. And they're stressed because they're, they're dealing with all that. And then the other partner comes home from work and they're stressed, they're and they're both This is the same kind of thing. And the middle of the night, they're both tired, who's getting up with the baby? So now they're both together at the end of the day, who's the one who's saying, Hey, why don't you take some more time,
Dr. Benjamin Karney 13:12
even though I'm ready to pull my hair out? Right? Okay, so this And really, the structure of that conflict is the structure of all conflicts. If I have something I want or need or prefer, and you have a different thing that you want, or need or prefer, who's going to get their way, in this moment. And that's, that's intimacy. The longer you're with someone, you're going to be in that kind of situation every day on a regular basis, maybe it'll be little, I want to have sex tonight, and you don't know, maybe it'll be bigger, I want to have a child and you don't, maybe it'll be something really big, like, I want to move to Chicago. And you don't I mean, like all these issues and and what happens in good relationships is that there's a general sense that I trust, we're going to each contribute equally. So it's okay for me to give in. Because I know that one day, you'll give it. But if what happens in distressed relationships is I can't give in because if I give in, I don't have confidence that there's an even exchange in one day you'll give in. And I resent giving in because I feel like I'm always giving. And so that's a real choke. tough challenge is because sometimes someone's got to help that baby. And
Dr. Richard Safeer 14:37
so is that like, Can I label that as trust is like building trust into the relationship or is it a little bit different than that?
Dr. Benjamin Karney 14:45
But I think that's a that's a it's a piece of trust. I think that's a great, great language for it, which is that what what happy couples have is, is that trust in each other's care and when you have that trust these issues don't have as much weight. Because if I get up to the baby, I'm confident I trust. Tomorrow you'll get up the new do the bake, or if I'm tired, but I still wash all the dishes tonight, because you're more tired. I'm confident that I'm not always going to be the one giving it I'm not always going to be the one making sacrifice. I feel I trust that we both make sacrifices, we both care about this relationship. It's Yeah, but
Dr. Richard Safeer 15:25
you use the word relationship. And I'm thinking partnership. And, you know, they're really of like, here's the invisible handshaking. I'm doing the dishes again tonight. But I know one of these nights, you're going to see that you're going to take your turn. And it's it's a partnership in that regard.
Dr. Benjamin Karney 15:43
It's a real big difference. But I agree. I think partnerships are a wonderful word, that in a satisfying relationship, people feel that partnership. They're aware of it, it feels strong, they can draw strength from it. And in a not so stable relationship. That partnership is under threat. It's it's, it says every man for themselves. And the question is when you are questioning that trust, or you don't feel secure, that your partner will have your back as you have your partner's back? How to build that trust up again, that's I mean, that's a real challenge. I mean, that's what couples therapy focuses on. So So let's
Dr. Richard Safeer 16:21
say that there's a breakdown, and the couples not feeling like they're they're equally taking the load of childcare or keeping the kitchen clean. And there is now a situation where we've lost the, the the benefit of the doubt, sure, a person is feeling slighted. So what would you recommend some steps B to help prepare that that situation?
Dr. Benjamin Karney 16:53
Well, first of all, that is a hard situation. So So those those situations are extremely hard to come out to sort of come down from. But there are some strategies that research suggests can be very helpful. One is to avoid getting into debates over who's right. What happens when couples are in distress a lot in an each person wants to get his or her way, is they say, Well, I deserve to get my way. Because I have a right to get my way. And you don't deserve it, you are wrong. And you can understand why that may be tempting strategy.
Dr. Richard Safeer 17:43
But I'm kind of laughing because that's basically saying to your spouse, your partner, that you have no individual rights only I have rights.
Dr. Benjamin Karney 17:53
Is that is true. That is the message. But in the moment, if you're tired, and you want to get your way, you can see the appeal, which is if you only understood that I'm right, we wouldn't have no argument you would give in because we both agree that I'm right. The problem is now you're in a debate over who's right, because your partner also feels right. So the trick is, can you disagree, and still acknowledge the validity of your partner's position? It's not easy. But it is a strategy to say, Okay, I want this thing. And you want a different thing, and you actually have every right to want it. We both have the right to want what we want, which means we're not in debate anymore. We're in a negotiation. Negotiations can be hard, really hard. But it's easier than a debate. It's better than a debate. I'm not trying to convince you that you shouldn't want me to do the dishes. You shouldn't you have every right to want me to do the dishes. And I have every right not to want to do this just now let's negotiate how we're going to deal with our difference. And that is always an easier perspective than let's debate who actually has the right to do this debate is a winner and a loser. And in a relationship. No one wants to be the loser. negotiation is all already gets you from a winner or loser to equals trying to work out a compromise. And that's a more productive road to do, even though it's still hard. Let's
Dr. Richard Safeer 19:26
I want to talk I want to bring up another stressor that I hear is a problem for some marriages. And that would be in laws. So then that must bring a special challenge to some marriages. Can you reflect on on the in law question?
Dr. Benjamin Karney 19:47
Well, I'll tell you, in our a lot of our research, almost all the research I've done for the last 25 years, has focused on newlywed couples, couples who were just gotten married within six months of their very first marriage. And we asked them what are the biggest stressors in your marriage? And in every study, we've done study 1000s. And 1000s of couples in laws are always in the top three. Like, of all the things you'll be stressed by in laws are always in the top three, especially in early marriage. So you absolutely right, that is a huge, huge stressor. Well, why? Because if you think about the relationship between two peoples complicated, well, in laws are more people you're in relationship with. So it's even more complicated. So if my spouse and I might want different things, now, my spouse I want might want different things. And my mom wants something else, and my dad and my uncle, my sister on other things, so those are hard, because it's hard to negotiate different people's competing desires. And especially, marriage often involves transitions from what my closest ties are with my family, the family that raised me. And now my closest tie is with this new person in my life, a relatively new person who didn't raise me. And that just means more opportunities for conflict and negotiation. Again, it is tempting, but a bad idea. To say, the right thing to do, is we'll do what I want you to do. And the bad thing to do is do what your mom wants you to do. Because your mom is crazy, and I don't like a very, that's never gonna
Dr. Richard Safeer 21:39
work. Probably calling your mother in law, or your father in law, crazy is probably not gonna sit well.
Dr. Benjamin Karney 21:45
Not gonna sit well, even if it's true. So, again, this is a situation where the first step is to recognize, oh, there's a lot of valid values here. But they're they compete. We're not in an argument for negotiation. We're not in a rush, I'm just trying to say the right thing to do is to ignore my family and spend the holidays with your family. But the right thing to do is to say, we do want to maintain ties to our family, or I do I also want to make you happy. How can we work this out? That is always a better starting point.
Dr. Richard Safeer 22:20
God so negotiate holidays to to expand on a previous stressor within the families, adding to the stress of marriage.
Dr. Benjamin Karney 22:30
I was gonna write on a bumper sticker, never debate, negotiate, but I just made it. You got
Dr. Richard Safeer 22:37
it. You said that in laws, were one of three top stressors I'm gonna I'm tempted to guess the other two.
Dr. Benjamin Karney 22:45
financial stress, number one, and the first child. Not everyone has a child in the first year. So that's all you're doing newlywed, newlywed. Okay. Your household chores, household man. Oh, okay. Which is kind of I mean, challenges are a part of that, of course. And they, they make those issues even more acute. But as people are establishing a household together, there's a lot to negotiate. You know, in different households have different patterns. Like some households, at the end of the night, all the dishes are clean, other households are late. If we leave some dirty dishes in the sink overnight, not a problem, someone will get to them different. So now the problem is if you come from one household, and your partner comes from a different household, yeah, you've got to negotiate something. Yeah. So the more there is to negotiate, the more room there is for different values and preferences. And the fundamental task of intimacy, like the task of intimacy, is negotiating those differences.
Dr. Richard Safeer 23:45
So you know, I like to, I like to camp and it looks like it. I can see how I think you're capping right now is I'm going to share a little story about me, my my, my then girlfriend, who's now my wife, I asked her to go camping with me, and she agreed, and I had two wonderful nights planned in Shenandoah National Park and everything went well according to plan. But what I did not know is that she really is not a camper. So why she decided to go camping with me is because she had an interest in me. And between her conversation with her mom, the decision was if you like this guy, you better go camping. So fast forward, and we're married. And we haven't gone camping since we were dating. And we, the first two of our three kids are boys. And I say something about going camping and she says this is why I gave you boys. Oh, that is Yosemite National Park behind me is one of my happy places. And I did go camping there with one of my boys. And so that's that was our negotiation. She gave me a boy. And she said, Go ahead, take time away from me and go camping.
Dr. Benjamin Karney 24:56
I think that what I love about that example Is it you never fell into the trap of saying You promised that you go camping? That was a condition. You are wrong to not go camping or what's wrong with you? Why don't you like camping? Never it was she has a right to like what she likes, think you have a right to live would you like and you negotiated a great way for you both to get what you want? And that seems like a you know, not easy thing to do. But the mark of a successful relationship.
Dr. Richard Safeer 25:27
Well, I'm gonna make sure she listens to this podcast. I hear you say that that's a mark of a great relationship. Thank you,
Dr. Benjamin Karney 25:35
a plus for you. So
Dr. Richard Safeer 25:37
let me ask you, we've talked about the negotiation strategy, we talked about checking in with yourself to see where your stress level is, we talked about getting in the pattern of your spouse checking in to see with where they are with their stress level, can you throw out another strategy that you have found very helpful for couples when they're dealing with stressful situations?
Dr. Benjamin Karney 25:59
Well, there's one of my favorite studies of this topic is research by colleague named Niall Bolger. And he's at Columbia University. And he studied couples who were one partner was studying for the New York bar exam. Oh, very stressful. I mean, that's, that's I haven't taken it. But my sense is very stressful. So what he did was he gave them a questionnaire every night, to fill out for like four weeks prior to the exam. Every night, they fill out a form. And what he found was he asked people, you know, how are you feeling today? And how do you feel about your relationship today? And how did how did your partner treat your day? Was it four weeks out from the exam, the more anxious, the studying partner was the partner studying for the exam, the more negative the other partner felt, it doesn't feel good to be with a partner who's really anxious and negative. But the week before that exam, that relationship disappeared. Doesn't matter how anxious the partner was, the studying partner was the other partner was cool with it. Why? Because they understood exams next week, I'm gonna cut you some slack. And for me, the lesson of that study is that if you know what your partner is dealing with, it is easier to cut them some slack. And a lot of times it's invisible. Richard, you know, but I don't know what your day was like. I don't know. I mean, it looks beautiful, just somebody behind you. But the day that you had before we started talking is invisible to me. So one thing I could do if I wanted to make us make sure we have a good relationship, make it visible. Really, how was your date figure out or maybe I knew that you had a real big appointment today, you got this podcast to record, maybe you're stressed out about it, you don't look like you are but you could have been the point being that the more we are aware of the invisible stressful just forces on our partners, the easier it will be to give them some grace, to give them some forgiveness. And the sort of space we all need to you know, be our klutzy stressed out anxious selves. So
Dr. Richard Safeer 28:17
so if I could put it into my simple mind thinking sounds like we need to put ourselves in our partner's shoes, and try to experience what what they're going through and maybe that we're creating some empathy.
Dr. Benjamin Karney 28:32
Empathy is a great word. And it's absolutely right. It's it's empathy is, you know, the secret sauce that keeps intimacy going. And it can be hard. So of all the ways that I can know your experience, one way is to know what stresses you're under today. I mean, another source of empathy is to know where you come from, know, Oh, I know what your parents how your parents treated you. I know what you're what you're sensitive to. I know what your background is, I know how you got to be the person you are right now in front of me. That's another source of empathy. So there's different strategies here. So one way so if the goal is to feel empathy, one strategy is to know where your partner is coming from. And the other is to know what your partner's going through right now. Is there any distinction between knowing their past right, knowing their present?
Dr. Richard Safeer 29:21
Right, right. And some of that, to me is like, when I started to explore my wife's parents and how their behavior probably impacted, my wife really opened up like my eyes to a whole new set of explanation that it it started to actually help me explore how my parents how they raised me is impacting me as a husband, and that's been really helpful to me in my marriage.
Dr. Benjamin Karney 29:52
I bet that's true. I bet that's true. I am certain it's true. So that
Dr. Richard Safeer 29:59
Oh, Got No, go ahead.
Dr. Benjamin Karney 30:01
It's funny to say the point I'm gonna make is that there's lots of roads towards apathy. And one of the things we're talking about is to sort of think, wait, what are the stresses my partners under? What did my partner go through? Before we walked into the room together? That's one strategy. Another one that you talked about is, where's that part of it comfortable? Where my partners experiences, you know, maybe growing up? Or? Or how do I probably become the person that my partner is? That's another path. The third path would be, once I'm partner moving towards a future path. Where's my partner? What are the goals of my partner? And that's another way of understanding, you know, why your partner is doing what your partner's doing?
Dr. Richard Safeer 30:39
So, as always, I'm just exploring how complicated marriages can be, which is why half of them end in divorce. And I'm curious, how much of a role do stressors play in that ultimate bad outcome? I mean, is it I mean, I don't even know if you can put a number on it. But there's so many stressors in this world, and in this lifetime, I've got it imagine it's a huge part of why marriages fail.
Dr. Benjamin Karney 31:09
It is I'm not gonna put a little bit of a number on it. So you know, when scientists do research trying to predict divorce, you know, if you have a good a good sample size, you can predict, you know, 1% of a significant percent 1% of the variance and divorce, or you can predict people will have a, you know, like a 5% greater chance of divorce. Our research is sensitive enough to detect those kinds of effects. But if you compare the divorce rate in the United States, between the most affluent neighborhoods in the United States, the the top third, in affluence in terms of household income, yeah, compared to the bottom third. The divorce risk is 200%, greater, twice as high in the lower third? No, in the lower third. Okay. Okay. The poor communities have twice as high divorce risk than more affluent communities, which has an enormous effect. It's a giant effect, like the psychological variables that we psychologist, I'm a psychologist study, almost never get as, as high as that level of prediction. So that suggests that having resources really, really protects marriage. And those resources, our money, flexible hours, a rich social network to help you like those things, you know what those things do all those things, they make the stresses less stressful. We talked about parents having their first kid, you can just imagine that if you've got good health insurance, grandparents living nearby, and flexible job hours, having that first kid is a different experience, than if you are socially isolated, you have a nine to five job or even a five two for the morning jobs, as many people do with Delphi and a timecard that you've got a punter you will know good health insurance, that same stressor is more stressful. These are giant effects.
Dr. Richard Safeer 33:13
And it's kind of sad, because obviously that has a negative toll on the child. And that sets them up for similar challenges in their lifetime. It's it's a vicious cycle. It is it's
Dr. Benjamin Karney 33:23
it that's sort of the engine that perpetuates sort of social inequality from generation to generation.
Dr. Richard Safeer 33:30
So lower socio economic status is a predictor of our increased risk of divorce because of the stressors that come with that. Is there another demographic group that you have identified as saying, hey, this group, or this age of marriage provides its own stressors that are particularly
Dr. Benjamin Karney 33:53
challenging? Well, I focused a lot on socioeconomic status. The other specific group that in our lab we've studied to some degree, like emphasize on is military Americans know that what's really interesting about military marriages is that there's a population that is also under a lot of stress. Yeah, after that, I started studying military marriages during the Iraq War in 2003, to 2005. Incredible stress in the military during that period, many deployments to combat zones, tremendous risk, long periods of separation from family. So the military is under great stress. Here's the interesting thing. During that same period, divorce rates in the military, were lower than incomparable civilians. And that's a real mystery until you think what's going on in the military that might help them deal with all that stress? Well, it so happens that the military as an employer, has the best health care in the country. The best childcare in the country. Military families get paid a subsidy for housing, they get paid a bonus for deployments and family separations. And they're part of a community. That is quite a supportive community. That's right. Well, so even though they're so stressed, there's a lot of support that helps that support has an effect to help their marriages. Right, right. So you might ask is really the question that it raises is, what if civilian families who are under stress received similar levels of support? as a culture as a country? We've said, we want to support military families. And we do. You might ask, why doesn't everybody deserve similar levels of support? Good question.
Dr. Richard Safeer 35:46
So tell me based on this idea that they're separations do, people who are make a living out of Navy sales who travel a lot for their job is that increase their risk of divorce?
Dr. Benjamin Karney 35:59
You know, it's a very hard thing to study. And here is why people choose those jobs. And they choose those jobs, often for a reason. So people who are in sales, or you know, I have a friend who was in management, and he was constantly Flying Cross, he spent like six months of the year, flying away from his wife and away from his children. But it felt like an investment in the family. Because he was making a lot of money for doing it. And his wife understood, this is something he's doing for us. So there are challenges to being separated. But also the people who do it are often highly committed to their families. So it's it's hard to tease apart a specific, a positive or negative effect, because it's got pros and cons don't make
Dr. Richard Safeer 36:47
a blanket conclusion, just because someone's not at home means that there's a problem at the home.
Dr. Benjamin Karney 36:52
That's exactly right. Sometimes. And for example, even when I was telling the military families, I remember talking to one woman who said, my husband just got back from deployment. And he is signing up voluntarily to go back. Wow. And I want him to go back. Because when he returns, we can put a down payment on a house. Wow, there was just that clear. It's like I want him to go, because it's good for our families and investment in our family. So they didn't she wasn't happy to be separated. But she was still in favor of it because of the long term benefits.
Dr. Richard Safeer 37:26
Sure. So Ben, I could talk to you for hours, I always find you so interesting and engaged. But tell me we only have a couple minutes left? Is there a particular message you want to send to our listeners? Or is there something that you're working on now you want us to know about?
Dr. Benjamin Karney 37:43
Well, you know, the things that we are looking at right now are sort of probing these invisible forces that really make a difference in relationships. So we're studying how the neighborhoods people live in effect there, their relationships and how they behave in the marriage and how they add the outcomes, the long term outcomes in marriage, over and above their own household. So regardless of my household income, the average household income in my neighborhood seems to be affecting marriages. We're looking at the effect of raising the minimum wage on marriages, we're comparing states that raise the minimum wage have lower divorce rates than states that didn't raise their minimum wage. Wow. So you know, what we're trying to do the message is, and I think this is a message that allows us to be a little more forgiving, which is, it's not always in our control. We can do the stuff we can control, and we should, there's things we can do to make our relationships better. But there's a lot of things that affect our relationships that are outside of the house, they're outside of our control. And I think paying attention to those being aware of them has to make us a little bit more sort of forgiving of what goes on in the house.
Dr. Richard Safeer 39:02
So if if you're in a married relationship, and you're having troubles, try to pause, pause often to recognize that it's not all about your spouse. It's about the stressors that your marriage is currently facing. Often. Often. That's Yeah, that's great. Then thank you so much for your continued science and research. You're really helping millions, probably billions of people around the globe. Yeah, you can say billions.
Dr. Benjamin Karney 39:34
Ideally, also, I'll sell for a lower number, but okay. It was always a pleasure to talk to you and, you know, anytime.
Dr. Richard Safeer 39:43
That's great, then I hope our paths cross again shortly.
Outro 39:50
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