How Quality Time Impacts Our Health and Relationships
David Sbarra is a Professor of Psychology at the University of Arizona, and he directs the Laboratory for Social Connectedness and Health. His research is centered around the psychological and physical health of relationships. David studies why and in what contexts relationships promote or hinder good health, the consequences of ending a relationship through breakup or divorce, and how people cope with difficult relationship transitions.
Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learn:
David Sbarra discusses the parallel between relationships and mental health
Does partner responsiveness improve the relationship and decrease stress?
David explains the research behind investigating the coregulation in paid-bonded attachments
How relationships are interdependent upon one another
David details the difference between intention and attention
Why is spending quality time a stress-reducing activity?
How to cultivate your relationship connection to maintain quality and avoid decline
In this episode…
How do you connect with your partner on a deeper level? Is it possible to increase your level of satisfaction with your relationship and your mental health?
There are opportunities to extend a deeper connection with your partner. How? David Sbarra says it is through attention and intention, you devote quality time to your partner and orient your relationship around self-esteem and personal growth. Are you ready to capture and put your relationship on the path to blossoming in the long run?
In this episode of Our.Love Podcast, Jim Coan is joined by David Sbarra, Professor of Psychology at the University of Arizona, to discuss creating and maintaining value in your relationships. David talks about the research behind the association between relationships and mental health, responding to your partner’s needs, and the importance of cultivating your relationship by being attentive and digging deeper to connect deeply.
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Episode Transcript
Intro 0:03
Welcome to Our.Love Podcast, where we share insights from top scientists and relationship experts on all things about love that are out of the box, refreshing and new. Now sit back, grab a cold drink or hot one if you prefer. And enjoy today's episode.
Jim Coan 0:25
Okay, thanks for chatting with me, Dave Sbarra. Welcome for people who are just having a look at this video, Dave Sbarra is one of the world's experts in how couples regulate each other physiologically, emotionally, behaviorally, and the consequences of that regulation for health, as well as for how people recover, when relationships break up. So there's just so much we could talk with Dave about but I wanted to start Dave, by, by noting this recent review you did, looking at the major theories of how our relationships affect our health and well being. And I'm just wondering if you could if you could help us out a little bit with the state of the field, how does it look to you right now, we know that relationships are linked to health. But do we know why?
David Sbarra 1:30
Well, I think we're so first of all, it's great to be with you. And to talk about these things, I think they're very important. And I think that general public's increasingly recognizing that they're important. We're coming through the pandemic and still living through it, we're thinking about our relationships quite a lot. We're thinking about people we missed. And we're also thinking about being quarantined with the people we don't miss and what it's like to live together and be together. So there's a very, very large literature. And you and I have written big long papers together about the work connecting the quality, quantity and status of our relationships to physical health outcomes, both in the short term immediate, like, say, your cardiovascular reactivity to stress in the lab, if your partner is there with you, and we put your foot in a freezing cold bucket of ice water, you have less of a blood pressure response. And also relative to being alone. Also, if you are merely thinking about your partner, you have less cardiovascular reactivity relative to being on. So we can call on these, these mental images of our partner to sort of buffer stress in day to day life. But also distally, right, people who visit in high quality relationships over the course of their adult lifespan. And you know, a lot of this has roots, long roots into childhood, but they live longer. And we know this in all kinds of different ways. The more friends you have the higher quality those relationships are, the longer your marriage, and partnerships last, whether or not you're brief, you live longer. So the question you start out with is, you know, what is in the black box in the middle? Yeah, we actually explain that. And your psychologist, as you know, we refer to that as mechanisms. What are the mechanisms that convey this action that helps us understand how this action unfolds? And typically, we think of, you know, probably three different components and mechanisms, we think about the one, you know, let's just start with the one in the middle emotions, and cognition, you know, our thoughts and our feelings? How do relationships shape our thoughts and our feelings? And here, we look at a lot about our experience of stress on a day to day basis, how do relationships sort of attenuate stress? How do they sort of take away the bad and and sort of increase the good? What's it like to you know, what, what actually happens to people physiologically, when you are touched? And when you you're when you have sex? Or when you have your partner after a long, stressful day at work? How do that? How does that change how we perceive the slings and arrows of life and this is we're very relevant to your own research program of how we perceive threats in the wild, right when we're with other people. So, but I also, you know, very, very, very much believe in other other pathways, and in particular one about health behaviors. So how do relationships shape and organize what we do in terms of whether or not we smoke, what we eat, how much we're drinking? How much physical activity do we get, and those are critical for our our well being and relationships play a large partner in this. There's also social components right? Who are you and your partner friends with What are their social resources they are at your disposal? What is the financial situation that is backing you as you live your life. And so when we think of mechanisms, we think these different kinds of routes. The interesting part about it is, for each of those different dimensions that I talked about, you can drill deeper and deeper and deeper, there's a mechanism to the mechanism. And you can go down into that. So when we start getting into specific relationship properties that really matter for day to day intimacy, day to day well being and what are those look like? And how do they unfold? Our big important question?
Jim Coan 5:36
So what kind of conclusions did you did you wind up drawing at in the in this review paper? That came out recently? We I think the title was something to the effect of maybe the title gives it away. Great theories need betanin need a better data?
David Sbarra 5:53
Yeah, I mean, we have a few papers, where we're looking at it. We're looking at the idea that we we have, we have an epidemiological finding, we have a big, you know, finding, it's very clear, high quality relationships, good health, which are the mechanisms that explain that. And what we're seeing is that we're really the sort of papers saying we're, we're really at the beginning of trying to understand this, because we can theorize about it. But we haven't done well in measuring how these kinds of things are unfolding over time. So for example, one target mechanism that I'm really keen about and that we're developing projects on in our laboratory is this idea of perceived partner responsiveness. And you and I have talked about this a lot. But it's, it's the idea that maybe one of the final pathways for relationship quality is the sense in my head that my partner does my felt experience that my partner understands me, cares for me, and values me. Yeah. Understanding, caring and feeling valued. And how do we get there? So the paper that we wrote is largely about how do we manipulate variables to get to these endpoints? What do we do to target these outcomes? And how do we help people create a sense of P perceived, perceived partner responsiveness in their relationships, because it's great to document that like, day to day variations in perceived partner responsiveness are associated with more intimacy, they're associated with more sex, they're even associated with better sleep quality, how long you live, and less pain. So great. Okay, that good, but maybe it's just the case that good relationships are associated with good outcomes. Can you target this? Can you really see that.
Jim Coan 7:52
When you say, Target, do you mean, isolate?
David Sbarra 7:57
variable, I mean, change. I mean, I mean, I, you have to isolate it to change it. But you want to know what really what we want to know, in the end, is if we take a couple that, let's say, is struggling a little bit, and we teach them some skills, or create an environment for them to increase their PPR, does the relationship improve accordingly? Does their day to day stress change? Targeted? We mean, engage it, alter it and see what happens? And that's, and we're doing that at a very, very small level right now, because we're trying to part of the I mean, you know, this very well, part of the long history in all clinical psychology and intervention science, is that we build these, you know, everything and the kitchen sink interventions. And they're from the top, top down, what do we think should work? What does it and there be huge packages? They're bloated? And theories? Yeah, yeah. And they don't, the interventions themselves don't work all that well, and have a really great example is that they love so much. But But now trying to talk about like, we start from the bottom one couple, texting one couple, talking to them about this, what does it look like? How is it unfolding? What are they doing? And that that, I think is going to be a winning approach.
Jim Coan 9:18
Yeah, yeah. So you're really going to be taking some of these theories and trying to isolate the variables that are that are said to be in play. And see if by by moving those variables around you can actually create the kinds of changes we want to see and that people want to see for their own relationships.
David Sbarra 9:41
Right right. Yeah, I mean, I think you you know that as well that I mean, I think some of the best work in this area, never replicate not yet replicated, but is Eli finkles marriage hack. And you know, this intervention is 21 minutes a year where we asked couples to write about negative interactions with their partner. But then try to reframe it and take the perspective of a distant other or outside evaluator so that you're not so caught in these attribution biases, or these Miss appraisals or the hostile attributions about your partner. And that reappraisal really seems to forestall this decline in relationship quality that happens pretty inevitably, for most couples.
Jim Coan 10:31
Yeah. And Eli's intervention, it has these neat properties that it's, you know, it can be used as an intervention when there's when there's problems arise arising already. But it can also be viewed as a kind of a prophylaxis, you know, a kind of a way to keep problems from from, from arising in the first place.
David Sbarra 10:55
Well, actually, the first study, and the really only big study on this was a prevention trial, right, a preventative intervention. Yeah. And he is there, I find this to be very interesting. There's this, I think this is actually one of my favorite papers is a we don't need to talk about the author's but it was a newlywed prevention intervention, where the randomly assigned, so true experiment couples to four conditions, to long detailed prevention programs, one on skills training, the other on emotional empathy. The other condition was a relationship awareness condition, where couples were watched a one hour video, discuss the importance of maintaining their relationship. And then we're given a list of movies to watch one per week from the list and a series of questions to discuss. And then note note, treatment, no intervention, the three active interventions all do the same over time. What does this mean? is So in fact, it's a failure of the heavy intervention conditions work? Well, if you create the space for couples to actually talk, to create some shared meaning about their experience to watch Netflix talk about what they like, and think about what it means for their relationship? There's a lot of benefit in that. And and that becomes very important. I know, it's relatively, you know, related to what you want to talk.
Jim Coan 12:35
Yeah, yeah. Well, speaking of being the field being sort of, at the beginning stages, it seems to me that you were really at the beginning of the beginning, in your 2008 paper with Cindy Hazan on CO regulation. And I was wondering if you could describe what you were what you mean, by CO Regulation A little bit, and, and how that might fit into all of this?
David Sbarra 13:05
Sure. So So, I mean, there was we were coming at this, there was a lot of work that had unfolded at the foundation for how we started thinking about this. But it's also I think, something you said in the beginning, by way of the introduction is important to emphasize here, I came, I sorted my work in the area of attachment theory, and spend a lot of time trying to understand these orientations we have in our mind about how other people respond to us are other people good. Are they trustworthy? Or am I lovable in relationships. And I spent a lot of time also studying loss in particular divorce. And when we wrote this paper speaking about in 2018, we were trying to understand loss responses. That was our beginning. That was our, you know, opening gambit, we weren't understand what's happening to people across their whole body, mind and bankrupted holes of mind and body when they experience a relationship breakups. And to do that we had to get into the world of like, what does it mean to actually be attached to another person? We came at it through the back door, and I said, Well, hang on a second. We know a lot about like, these states of mind that we hold about other people, but we really need to start developing a more complete theory about like, what what is the glue between people? How do you go from being, you know, friends, acquaintances, you know, people, you know, to being lovers and partners and bound together? Yeah, we call this pair bonding. So if we call it pair bonded, what does it what does the actual bond need? And to do this yet, we turn to a variety of other yields, ethology, and then Emotional biology, animal studies, and we started to understand this idea of CO regulation is that a property of pair bonding is the idea that physiological systems in bonded relationships are interdependent. And we took this idea of interdependence to go across the mind and the body that as, as attachment relationships emerge, there's, you know, a sum, it's an emergent property that the sum is greater than the two parts, and that there's an interdependence in physiology, and that when you lose one person, or through a breakup or death of a partner, there's this free running of the biological systems and even our psychology that we feel, fundamentally dysregulated because the person who is doing the regulation is gone. So I mean, the easiest way to think about this for people as if they are regular coffee drinkers, or drink soda, or something like that, the withdrawal symptoms you experience is a form of dysregulation the condition to biology, in relation to something like caffeine intake, there is a condition to biology in relationship in relation to our partners. And so we started writing about this, and we started writing about and studying empirically. And so that was a sort of basic claim of the of the theory that we were pushing.
Jim Coan 16:34
But it was it was a framework, and a way of thinking about bonding, and how how people sort of become, in a way, physiologically, I'm not, in a way, literally physiologically sort of braided together, when they spend a lot of time together. That really provided us all with a really nice frame, to think about and to lean on. As we were trying to do our own work. I certainly that was true for me. But, um, you know, one of the things so so just to summarize, so what what part of what you're saying is like, you know, when when you drink coffee for a long time, your brain adapts to the presence of coffee in your system, caffeine in your system. And if you don't have that caffeine, then it's sort of like a stool that used to be there, and you try to lean on the stool and well, down you go, because it's not there. And that's what our partners are, are like for us. So in a sense, we learn about what our partners are doing, in part by what happens when our partners aren't there anymore. That's part of how we've learned what partners are there. And we've talked about this idea of a sort of a hidden, a hidden regulator, that partners you mentioned this in the paper, that partners are hidden regulators. You don't see it all the time, but it's doing work. Absolutely,
David Sbarra 17:57
absolutely. Yeah. And that we got to a lot of this by studying the animal literature and do these these rat dams, the rat moms and their beak. And unfortunately, with animals, there's a lot of experimentation that you just can't do with humans. So if you anesthetize the mom, for example, temporarily, you see, you know, the BB goes, you know, and develops a temperature while it's running around. And, and this sort of like, the systems are very interdependent. And I, I mean, you know, this work better than I do some of the history of it. But you know, what is, you know, now, 14 years, we almost 14 years later, and probably almost 20 years later, since we started thinking about this, I really think part of the problem is that we have this, because of our bodies, like literally because of our skin. Our psychology is organized around thinking about individuals as the unit of analysis, and so much, there's so many ways in which society is organized around this, and societies differ tremendously and the extent to which they please value and importance. But the mind and the body are deeply extended. And I think if there's any contribution of this work, we were trying to say, how are we extended in the context of our relationship? How, how are we interdependent, and we didn't think we were because why is it again? Why is it that losing someone is such a profoundly devastating experience, and it's devastating across multiple levels. And I think another way, if we put the physiology on the side for a minute, and we start thinking about the level of psychology, there are so many ways in which this is relevant to and you've done work in this also very elegant work, where you've shown that like, how who do we think of when we think The Self, right? Well, how do we understand who we are as a person? Well, who I am as a person is bounded up very much in terms of how who, who I am with my partner, who my partner thinks I am. And, and this is, I think, a very important one, how we spend our time, like, what is the regulatory structure of how we spend our days together, because what is lost, when relationships break up, or there's, there's a spouse dies, a partner dies, you lose the structure of your life, literally, and what is the structure of your life, it's not like, Oh, I love that person so much. And we were so comforting there is that what's also like, the rhythms of our daily life, we got up, we had coffee, we read the paper together, we went on a walk, or we went off to work, and then we came home, all those things very disrupted, and that disrupts our fundamental sense of who you are as a person.
Jim Coan 20:55
Yeah, all of this is reminding me of a colloquialism that we use all the time, which is quality time, spending quality time together. Right. Um, do you think that? First of all, I, I'm interested in what you think most people mean, most of the time when they when they refer to quality time? And then do you think that that bears any connection to what you're talking about?
David Sbarra 21:22
I think it I think the way, let me go. Second question. First, I think the way it bears connection is that the greater the greater quality of the relationship, the more interdependence we experience, and therefore, the sort of greater the magnitude of the potential loss. So what is it it is the opportunity to quality times the opportunity to create, maintain, and extend your connection to your partner in I really think through two vehicles, one is attention with an A, and the other is intention. So I attend to you in a way that may be different than what I am providing outside of quality time. And your you can have quality time together playing tennis, but we can be together and I am attending to you, right. And we do so with intention, we do so with the intention of trying to connect to each other and expand our sense of self, or to get deeper into what our struggles are. If you go out to dinner, you have a drink, or you go for a walk, you didn't cool things we, you know, most everyone would say, Well, yeah, that's quality time, but you're doing it with attention to the other person, and you have the intention of building or sort of putting back into your relational bank.
Jim Coan 22:52
Wow. I mean, that's, I find that really powerful because I think that when, you know, we toss around words, the phrases like quality time, I think a little cavalierly without really knowing what we're recommending, to people, you know, you need to spend quality time together, does that mean doing anything? Or does that mean? Doing anything with the intent to pay attention? Or is it even something something deeper? I don't, I don't really know. But I think that what you're saying gets us a lot closer.
David Sbarra 23:25
I think it means doing almost anything with attention and intention. So like, you know, for example, we usually have dinner around 630 In our family, and probably I'm done by 640. And me, and where are we eat is like there's a little bench seat in our kitchen. And I will often like recline in the bench seat and just sort of talk to my wife about her day. And she'll talk to me about her day, what I like, really consciously try to put away my phone, just sort of sit there and chill. And with the intention of like trying to understand what she's sort of going through. And you know, it doesn't all need always need to be like a deep, a deep kind of soul searching communion between two people, but just the opportunity to be together with some attention, because so much of what you've heard me talk about before, but that's like a whole different soapbox. But I think quality time is increasingly difficult, because quality is increasingly difficult, because it's always you know, our lives are so interrupted.
Jim Coan 24:40
Right? And so and so if we're able to focus our attention even a little bit we don't want to we don't want to set too high a standard for ourselves, right? We don't want to you know, this is another more Eli Finkel work we don't want to create some impossible, you know, standard that that, you know, it's never quite good enough, you know, good enough is good enough, right? But there are simple things we might be able to do just put your phone away. Yeah. And to at least create a situation where your attention isn't being robbed from you, as you as you chitchat or walk along the path or whatever it is.
David Sbarra 25:21
Right. And I, what is the intention Park, I really do think the intention part just connects back to that idea of responsiveness that I intend to help my partner feel, or one could endeavor to help their partner feel valued, cared for and understood. Right? Like, yeah, it makes sense. It makes sense that you got mad, I would get mad to like that. That totally makes sense. Why you? Did that make sense? Oh, well, you know, you forgot her name. But like, anyone can forget or need you. You know, like, yeah, okay, I'm not a terrible, wretched person. Right. I did. You know, and that's a, I think that's really important.
Jim Coan 26:04
And so you mentioned how, you know, this attention and intention is, is part of how we expand ourselves to include each other and how we create that, that bond, that physiological bond that braiding together of each other? I mean, how would you say, what would you say that quality time does for a couple.
David Sbarra 26:31
I mean, I think it is a fundamental, stress reducing activity, right like that, if there, it's, it's, I'm, I'm always thinking about, like, where we're dialing in on our lives, we're reducing the sort of stress that we're experiencing from work from all the demands from parenting from family life, but we're also increasing the sort of joys and the positive experience. So creating a space to do both of those things is important to really unwind together. And to, to just have like a, like, a speed of space and time where you can unwind, but also to laugh, and to dream, and to vision, you know, do stuff in a sort of, like, forward looking, fantasy kind of way together, right? Because I think this idea, what do we want on the outcome side, is to really, always be preserving, enhancing this sense of shared identity and quality through the week, right through the we like, the more we are a weak, the better we are because the more robust this relational entity is, and there's, there's research to support this, you know, well, you know, depending on how couples sort of describe the quality of their relationship, how many words they use is developing correlated with their relationship quality, that makes a big difference. So enhancing the Wii is something that's very important.
Jim Coan 28:07
And one of the things that's always been so fascinating to me about that research, even going all the way back to Goldman's early work, looking at how people refer to their, their relationship in terms of a Wii versus, she and I are he and I, right, um, one of the things that's so interesting to me is how many ways there are for couples to create that sense of we, you know, there there is one of the points that sometimes gets lost in that early Gottman relationship research is that the the couples that are having a harder time, look far more similar to each other than the couples who are who are sort of pulling it off the couples that are, that are creating that, that sense of being a wee with each other and, and, you know, having able to, or who are able to have this quality time bait, they're, they're really diverse, they're really different from each other, they have all these different strategies for doing it. And that's part of why we have relationships with this person and not that person. This is you know, I am, I am who I am and they are who they are. And when we're together we create something unique.
David Sbarra 29:23
Absolutely, absolutely. Yes. And I think, I mean, there are so many ways that I think the most common way distressed couples are similar is this attribution bias, this is sort of thinking of the other person, poorly, you know, he or she is an asshole or he or she is such a, you know, whatever we go on, right? And so, stepping out of that, and and coming to really accept the person for who they are warts and all. It's very, very important and then developing that shared meaning and cultivating quality time does.
Jim Coan 30:07
So, so what does what this failing to achieve quality time to?
David Sbarra 30:15
I think one of the things, and there, there are multiple sources of data on this, and it's a pretty reliable effect is that if you do nothing to cultivate and maintain your relationship, its quality will decline. So So and that's a really so, so, um, probably within the first year of marriage, first few years of marriage, about a fifth of relationships will end within the first few years of new marriages, those are all very high quality when they begin for the most part, right. So you need to cultivate some quality time, some opportunity for connection that is going to put in your life as a buffer against this. And I think this is a very important way of thinking about this. We attend to our relationships, just like we attend to the other important things, I, you know, do physical activity, I try to eat well, I sleep, and I try to maintain my relationships. Okay, well, that's good. What do you mean by maintain? Well, you know, try to call my friends, text with my friends, try to you know, and then when it comes to your partner, right, I think I talk a lot with couples, about thinking on terms of in terms of the scale, like, what are you doing every single day? Like to to maintain your relationship? What is it? What are your daily habits of relationship maintenance? And what are you doing per week, right? I don't, you don't need to go out together to go dancing every week. And you know, people who have young kids and are in certain life circumstances, that's not realistic, right? But you'd be thinking about what you're doing on a weekly basis, that really sort of matters for your relationship, overall, I think is important. And to go all the way back, that's acting with intention, right? If we just sort of forget about it, and put it on the backburner, We're so screwed. And and, you know, like, how did I end up in this situation? Where we're fighting all the time? How do we get here? Well, part of it is that you there's, there's a very slow, steady slippage, where you start to see each other as, you know, sort of two opposing forces working against each other unless you're trying to grow and change together. And that's much more complicated than then said, so but I think he does, there is a critical piece to understand is if you don't attend to it, it's going to, you know, going to go down.
Jim Coan 32:57
It's like, it's like buying a house buying a brand new house, right? Yes, made, it's perfect. And you just want to sit in, you know, settle into it, and not have to do anything to it. But over time, it's going to whether the roof is gonna start leaking, or the you know, the floors gonna start creaking or whatever it is. You've got, if you don't, if you don't attend to that maintenance, it's gonna it's, it's gonna start going downhill,
David Sbarra 33:26
for sure. Absolutely. Absolutely.
Jim Coan 33:28
You mentioned putting the phone away. And it's got me thinking a little bit, just by way of sort of closing. What are the kinds of as far as you know, or could would guess, what are the kinds of things that that get in the way of a couple achieving quality time with each other?
David Sbarra 33:52
Well, I mean, there are so many efforts, each couple, I assume it's quite different. Right? So there's the harried nature of life, right? Like, if people were watching it, or working or lifting or working, have children and you know, are running around on the weekends, I feel exhausted come Monday morning, and it's exhausted by like, all this time that's spent supposed to spend recuperating, is spent, like driving people around. And that's my story. It should show. But also, I mean, if we dig a little deeper, one of the things that happens is that people start getting polarized, and lives that are together under one roof, and may be functioning pretty well as sort of like a raise happy children kind of thing or can be pretty siloed off, right? So you need opportunities to connect to each other physically. You need an intimate relationship. And then you need to create opportunities to sort of break down those silos and to say to each other You know, we haven't done this we haven't connected, we haven't needed to really sort of someone's got to be monitoring. So I think there are also things I mean, one thing I also really want to say is that there are many like attributes of relationships that really matter. And what I mean by this is a, we back at you maybe a decade ago, I was reading these, like relationship advice columns. And we have like this, this euphemistic cultural idea that love means never having to say I'm sorry. And I changed the title for one of the posts. And I was like, love means always having to say or, and because so so part of like, I think what makes up a high quality relationship is to accept that you are a deeply fallible person, and that you may act out and you may sort of like, be bad, and you may be bad, you may be less than the best version of yourself in your relationship quite often. And so what makes a good relationship is two things, I think, is that you that you own that when you're bad. And you also forgive your partner quite easily when he or she does the same, to really say, you know, think about how profound that is. If I am really sort of mean and nasty to my partner, because I had a bad day. And I'm just like, I'm an idiot, thoughtless idiot. And my partner's like, it's okay. I know, you're not like that. i That's not you. Wow, that is really intact. That is really powerful. It's such a opportunity for me to understand and grow. And I think that's, that's the kind of thing when, what are we doing when we're connecting? We're trying to go for something like that on the outcomes.
Jim Coan 36:56
Man, I think you have just expanded our definition of quality time in a super important. Great. Dave, this was one of the best conversations I've ever had in 45 minutes. I can't believe it. Thank you so much for talking to me about this.
Outro 37:18
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