The Role of Support Within a Family
Phil and Carolyn Cowan are professors of psychology at Berkeley University of California and have been married for over 60 years. Not only do they work together, but they also co-authored a book, When Partners Become Parents: The Big Life Change for Couples. Together, they designed a couples group to strengthen family relationships and have been involved in three longitudinal studies of families. Guided by a family systems model, their research dives into the intergenerational attachment patterns and couple relationship quality to provide the contexts in which effective parenting leads to positive cognitive, social, and emotional outcomes for children.
Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learn:
Phil and Carolyn Cowan talk about how relationships suffer when one party is under emotional distress
Why you should speak calmly to have a collaborative conversation with your partner during disagreements
The correlation between a balanced relationship and the success of children in the home
Carolyn discusses consciously thinking about the atmosphere of your parenting strategy
How community support can help relieve stress
Phil explains why recruiting both parents is crucial for successful parenting
Why discussing expectations in parenthood can provide a feeling of support
Phil and Carolyn share some of their research questions for partners
What can couples do to create a supportive environment?
In this episode…
When a couple has their first child, their marital satisfaction can decrease. Is it possible to increase marital quality and have fewer conflicts? How can parents strengthen their relationship to benefit their children?
Phil and Carolyn Cowan designed a program to help couples practice support in their relationship. The program guides couples to practice resolution through appreciation, communication, and a collaborative parenting style. Through practicing, parents can set the tone for a higher possibility of success in their relationship and also have more positive outcomes for their children.
In this episode of Our.Love Podcast, join Dr. Keely Sikes Rollings as she sits down with Phil and Carolyn Cowan, psychology professors, to discuss their research and practical tips for practicing support in a loving relationship. Phil and Carolyn talk about the emotional toll stress can have on family relationships, why establishing an atmosphere of conscious thought can improve marital quality, and the importance of a community for successful parenting.
Resources Mentioned in this episode
Philip Cowan’s email: pcowan@berkeley.edu
Carolyn Cowan’s email: ccowan@berkeley.edu
When Partners Become Parents: The Big Life Change for Couples by Carolyn Cowan & Philip Cowan
Sponsor for this episode
This episode is brought to you by “Our.Love Company.”
If you want to build a strong long-lasting relationship with your significant other and explore new-exciting ways to engage each other, download our Our.Love app today - it is free!
Go to www.our.love and sign up for the latest insights on all topics related to relationships and love! as well as Access to our app! It’s free.
Episode Transcript
Intro 0:03
Welcome to Our.Love Podcast, where we share insights from top scientists and relationship experts on all things about love that are out of the box, refreshing and new. Now sit back, grab a cold drink or hot one if you prefer. And enjoy today's episode.
Dr. Keely Sikes Rollings 0:25
Hi, this is Dr. Keely Sikes Rollings, co host of Our.Love Podcast, where we visit with top experts in all things relationships. Today, I'll be talking with Dr. Philip and Carolyn Cowan, prolific researchers, couples, therapists and authors on all things family relationships. Doctors Cowan have not only conducted long term studies of hundreds of families, but have authored an important book entitled, When Partners Become Parents: The Big Life Change for Couples. They are retired professors from the University of California, Berkeley, and they've been married for 63 years. Today, we will be discussing their research and practical tips for practicing support in a loving relationship. Phil, Carolyn, welcome. I'm so happy to have you with us.
Carolyn Cowan 1:12
Thank you. It's great to be with you.
Phil Cowan 1:14
It's great to be with Yes,
Dr. Keely Sikes Rollings 1:16
I really look forward to our conversation in preparation for today. I've taken some notes, I've got some questions to ask. And I feel like we could probably talk for hours. Hopefully we can pack as much as we can into the time we have together. And maybe we'll have to have you back to continue. I'd love to start with the research that you've done and the outcome around these five areas of risk and protection for couples. And as I read it, it sounds like these are the five areas that if they're on board, the couple could be more protected. And if 123 Or maybe all five of them are not on board, the the couple could be more at risk. The first one that you've listed is the individual's mental health. Can you speak a little bit to that, and then I'd really like to talk a lot about the second risk protection factor, maybe more in depth, which is which is more about the couple's work, but But would you like to speak to that first risk factor? Order,
Phil Cowan 2:23
while we're saying they really sound obvious, but if an individual if if husband or wife or our CO parent partner, if they're depressed, for example, or facing severe distress, it's just unlikely that they're going to have the resources to be supportive, loving, engaged parents, with their kids. And and the same thing with each other. So I mean, that there's just a lot of research that that tells what as they say, I think is the obvious that if one person is struggling with mental health issues, or roles, it's fair to conduct a reasonable, warm, loving, supportive family. It's not impossible, but it's harder,
Carolyn Cowan 3:20
but it needs to be addressed. And that's in our work. That's just one of the things we would focus on, to make sure that the partners understand that this is going to get in their way if they don't take care of it and get some help.
Dr. Keely Sikes Rollings 3:33
Right. Right. And and in sort of the the conversation around support, identifying that one, or maybe even both partners are going through something and getting the support they need individually as a couple as a family if someone is, as you say, right? struggling with anxiety, stressors, depression. Great. Okay, the second one is the one I really want to spend some time on, which is the Way Partners talk to each other, especially when dealing with differences or disagreements can either be very protective for them, or can put them at risk. What are your thoughts on on that piece?
Carolyn Cowan 4:14
Well, here's here's the crux of what gets in the way in couple relationships. You know, if you if your partner brings up an issue, and your reaction is up, oh, this means trouble. And you don't have haven't developed a style where you can ask your partner to say a bit more about that. What is it that's worrying him or her about that? Where is this coming from? What's pushing their buttons, so that you can understand before you even think about trying to solve it, or deal with the challenge? It's totally common for partners to have different ideas and different vulnerabilities about certain things. We kind of know that but we don't always pay attention to it. And so if we start getting worried the minute something, because it becomes clear that we disagree about something, but we have a serious conflict we haven't worked out. It can get in the way of having a warmer, more respectful conversation about what is this about? And what then eventually, what might we do about it?
Phil Cowan 5:29
Well, what we're hoping to do, what we're hoping that couples can do, for example, is instead of somebody says something, and the other person says, I disagree, and it starts to escalate, and you get into an attacking exchange, instead of that is to do what our friend and colleague who's no longer with us, unfortunately, Dan Wilde talked about, get on the platform and try and figure it out. So instead of attacking, you want to try and establish a collaborative, and this may sound really weird. But if you get into one of these back and forth, and it's not too high, and you can still talk to each other, I've kind of interviewing the other person, I'm saying, Well, you know, you're you're really upset about this, what's going on? I don't understand it. Rather than saying, You're wrong, I'm right.
Carolyn Cowan 6:25
It's not my fault.
Dr. Keely Sikes Rollings 6:28
Great, great. So what you're suggesting is finding a way to connect around the problem and this idea of being up on a platform. To me, the image of that is being side by side with my partner up above and sort of looking down together at something rather than me kind of under the platform and with boxing gloves on almost.
Carolyn Cowan 6:51
It's sort of like, what is going on here? Let's take a look. You know, we understand this.
Phil Cowan 6:56
So it becomes more collaborative than attacking. Yeah, yeah. Always drama. The other the other alternative often is to back off and not talk about it, right, just doesn't solve the problem, either.
Dr. Keely Sikes Rollings 7:11
Right right. And that also requires kind of, in my mind, dropping the dropping the anger and the resentment, and somehow finding a way to join any suggestions, any suggestions on that?
Carolyn Cowan 7:27
So this is where the, the of what we were talking about first, play can play a role. If someone, one of the partners or even both are depressed or really anxious, especially about this topic, whatever it is that just gave up. It's, it's going to be difficult to be more collaborative. But we're trying to help partners recognize and be more conscious about what's going on, so that they can do something more effective and satisfying, not terrifying, because some partners will get so worried that they'll pull away and withdraw and not ever conversation. And that doesn't help either, unless it's, I need a break, let's come back to this. And then in an hour, that that would be fine.
Dr. Keely Sikes Rollings 8:19
Right. And in fact, again, I'm such a visual person, I need a break, I need to take the boxing gloves off, take a break in my corner, get some water and then come back and hop up onto it right kind of hop up onto the platform, I like that image a lot.
Phil Cowan 8:35
You said drop the anger, I'm not sure that that's very easy to do. One thing that you can do is is to say it, but commonly have, you know, I'm feeling so strongly about this, I'm I'm worried that you're just going to come back at me here, I need to tell you that this is really upsetting. So so instead of squelching, of trying to find a way to say it in a more pop supportive way.
Dr. Keely Sikes Rollings 9:08
And I heard you in that example, Phil using an i statement, and also talking very calmly, rather than you always leave the wet towel on the floor. Right? How let's use that as an example. How might someone rephrase that? If if if one of the partners is really frustrated with the wet towel on the floor every day?
Phil Cowan 9:33
Something like this might might help. You know when I see you leave the towel on the floor. Um, I'm getting upset about this. It bothers me. You know, it's just one of those things. That bothers me. And maybe could we find another way to do this? That because I didn't want to tell you because I was worried that this would turn into a fight That's probably too much right there. I would say about half of it, and then stop and wait for a response. Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Keely Sikes Rollings 10:09
And then engage with that other part. But But again, it's the i statement. And it's the tone of voice. And it's the sharing about how I feel, rather than your I don't know, I think the other sounds like, right, you're a bad person.
Carolyn Cowan 10:24
Right, exactly right. To go with the vulnerability, it leaves you with rather than, you know, you can't expect me to be doing this all the time.
Dr. Keely Sikes Rollings 10:36
Right. Right. Oh, and I'm so excited to talk about the relationship and how it changes when kids then come into the picture, because it's so it at least in my personal experience, and certainly working with couples in my office, it really changes that dynamic. Well, not I shouldn't say, often, it often really changes that dynamic. Yeah.
Carolyn Cowan 11:00
Well, what are what are, studies begin to show over time, because we've followed couples over time, and talked about all these different parts of their relationships. And in some cases, we've worked with some of them in our group for a long time. And in others we haven't done when we compare what happens in those relationships with the intervention. And without, we can see that if we can help them reduce the anger and anxiety that we're talking about. And if we can help them have this more collaborative way of meeting the disagreements and challenges that they have, amazingly, may not, it may sound obvious also, their their ability to be there and be parents for their kids improves, they're more taken care of, they're less, you know, anxious and deprived. So their parenting becomes less harsh, and more responsive. And imagine that their kids have fewer behavior problems.
Phil Cowan 12:02
And we found they do better in school, they do they do better with their peers, even a few years after these groups. And so it's a kind of system of all of these things working together or trying to reduce the risks and, and increase the good parts of the film.
Dr. Keely Sikes Rollings 12:25
So you're suggesting is happy couple happy, kids are happy couple, happy and successful kids. And I don't mean successful and sort of the traditional, whatever the traditional term is, but that's good behavior, and, and happy and potentially well adjusted.
Phil Cowan 12:45
That's it, maybe it's another thing that sounds sort of obvious. But it's missing in a lot of parenting classes and parenting books that focus on what a parent does with a child. That's really important what a parent does with a child. But even more important is the atmosphere in the home in which the child is growing up. And that's governed a lot by the couple. And it gets by the couple's intimate relationship with each other. And it's also their co parenting relationship, can they be collaborative and not undermining and co parenting. But we have lots of evidence from our studies, and lots of evidence in other studies, that yes, if the couples are doing better, it's more likely that the parenting is going well, and that the kids are doing better.
Dr. Keely Sikes Rollings 13:35
And, and that sort of leads us right into this third risk protection factor on the list of five that you've identified. The third one says the relationship between each parent and their children. It can be either risk factor or protective factor. unresolved disagreements between parents on basic aspects of parenting can make it harder for the parents and the children
Carolyn Cowan 14:02
of connect with both with what challenges them as a couple as CO parents. And it relates to the fourth thing that's on our list, which is, okay, what what went on in the relationships between their parents, the parents, parents, the grandparents, and between the grandparents and this adult child, and which of those things worked well for them and which got in their way or made them frightened or feel like they weren't worth thought that they want and if they can understand more about that, take some time with it and appreciate each other's background that they're bringing to this family. They have a much higher possibility that they can change the tone in this family now, if there were things that really They didn't work well for them when they were growing up. And that's left out of an awful lot of parenting talk. And that is where where are your models? And if you don't have positive moms, some of our parents say, I know what I don't want to do. But I don't know how to do something different, that would be more positive.
Dr. Keely Sikes Rollings 15:22
Right? Right. Yeah. Chapter One, a parenting book could be even like a survey that each of the partners takes around. This is what worked well, for me in my childhood, this was what didn't work. Well, this is how I'd like to do things differently. Are we on the same page? And do you understand where I'm coming from, these are the hurts I'm carrying with me.
Phil Cowan 15:48
That's exactly right. And one more thing to add to the learning part. I think parents these days are struggling with this issue, especially if they're working hard, and, and even even more with COVID. Parents know that it's helpful to be warm and supportive to your kids. But it's also important to set some limits and to be there to to provide some structure for the kids. And, and so parents struggle with that some parents are very structured, and maybe not as much warmth as they would want to be. Some parents are very warm, but not structured, and the kids often become anxious in those situation. So those are the kinds of things that can be changed, although it's a little hard to change them, that really helping the family,
Carolyn Cowan 16:43
again, appreciated, what your models were, counter, what your models are in a community and trying to think more consciously about what it is you're trying to do, what kind of atmosphere you're trying to create in your parenting, and then working together to see how you get closer to that. And that's what most of our work has been about.
Dr. Keely Sikes Rollings 17:06
Yeah. How would you suggest a couple have that conversation about past hurts me, I think for many couples that were require a tremendous amount of vulnerability.
Carolyn Cowan 17:21
Right, one of the things we've been doing over the years is working with small groups of couples who are at a similar stage that they're about to have their first baby or have had their first children, or their kids are about to make the transition into school to formal schooling, or later on in life, you know, their, their kids are becoming adolescents and so on. And one of the one of the things that helps, is to hear what other parents are going through. The most common thing that people say years after they've worked with us in some of these groups is, I discovered, we weren't the only ones who were being challenged by these things, or that I didn't feel any stigma for being so poor, or from having or having some challenges, it can be very relieving. But without some kind of more structured or formal way of doing that. It's, of course, it's up to each couple to figure out how they're going to be able to talk about some of these things. And sometimes they might, they might benefit from some professional help in doing so. Right.
Phil Cowan 18:34
I'm just, I had a thought while you were talking, I'm using an exercise from the group that might help this. And in the groups, what we have people do is give them four pieces of paper. And they write down two things that they want to bring from the families they grew up in. And two things that they don't want to bring from the families they grew up in, they put them in a paper bag. And then they draw out their, their different papers, and they discuss it. It's a gimmick in a way. But it turns it from something you do when you're in the middle of a fight to start into a game with a structure with some rules, and it brings the heat down and enables people to, again get on it's a very fight for me. Kind of strategy, something like that.
Dr. Keely Sikes Rollings 19:33
Yeah, I love that idea. And the opposite of that is in a fight saying you act just like your mother, or you're treating me like I'm your you know, child or this is all because of the way your dad treated you. Yeah, it takes it out of that in into sort of out of that place of anger and more into a place of, again, sort of to some hurts that maybe we're all carrying with us
Carolyn Cowan 19:57
when we just All of these congress have some of these conversations more formally and these couples groups that I mentioned, one of the things that happens is that sometimes a partner will discover something about the way their spouse described this incident growing up, or why I'm so sensitive about that, in a way that helps them appreciate more, why they have different ways of responding to their kids, when the kids are misbehaving or being difficult or whatever. And sometimes that tones down, just being angry and saying, that's not what you do with kids, four year olds, or 12 year olds, right. And we also spend some time trying to help them think about what's reasonable, given the age and stage their child or children are at, because some people just don't have a very good idea about that, what you can expect of a two year old, what you can expect them a eight, and year old, and so on. So some of that needs a little bringing together so they can figure out why they get in trouble over these things.
Dr. Keely Sikes Rollings 21:12
Yeah, and I can't wait to talk to you a little bit more about support between the couple and setting expectations, even with your partner, right, their expectations, we set for a two year old, a five year old, a 12 year old, an 18 year old, those are all so different. But even setting expectations in the couple. So that I think is really important, I'm going to put that idea just on hold for a second, I want to get to the fifth area of risk and protection. And then we'll go back to this idea of expectations. So the fifth piece, you say his support, or lack of it from friends, family, community, and organizations. It sounds like another thing that you found in your research is it's not only support among the couple, but it's outside support, as well.
Phil Cowan 22:05
Absolutely outside support, we tend, especially if you compare it to 100 years ago, we are living isolated lives, instead of living in farming communities with our in laws and our relationships and our cousins and things like that we're living in places in cities and alone. And it gets to be fairly distorted there where you have a hothouse of the couple, and you expect each person to provide all the things that you need, where really we need connection with others, we need connection with our families, especially if it's a good connection. And we often need help from outside agencies and or outside services. And we need to, I know there's a stigma sometimes about that, but but we need to find ways to get support outside to people and to marshal resources. And people who can do that tend to be better off in their families. One of the big ones will and we haven't talked about this yet is is work work can be a source of great enjoyment, work can be a source of great stress, and it spills over. Right that is stress. And what is obvious is stress at work spills over into the family stress in the family. Employers should know more about this strip that stress in the family spills over into work and staff. So to the extent that you can make it more supportive, to the extent that that's possible, or gaining support from other things, if stress in work is high. Maybe you need some other source of friends or meetings or other other ways of getting nurtured
Dr. Keely Sikes Rollings 24:03
in the groups that you've run in your research sound like that's exactly what they are formulated around support from other people going through similar life stages in my in my right is at the
Carolyn Cowan 24:18
start. We I mean our attitude about it all is, you know, making families is really difficult and challenging. And it's not a simple matter of just knowing how to do it all, especially these days. And in our most recent work. In these groups. We've actually been working with hundreds I mean, in small groups, hundreds of very poor, low income families, and the stress for them is immeasurable. If they're having to decide with their meager income whether to buy food or pay the light bill. I mean, it's a it's really serious stuff. But instead of Oh, allowing them to just get discouraged and say, There's no way I can do all this. We're trying to create a community and also let them know about help that is available in some of their communities, so that it's not entirely on their shoulders. Yeah. And that will help if they can do a little bit of that. And have a school was alluding to not feel shamed, because they need some help, or they need more childcare, and paid leave, and all these things that of course, some of our political forces are fighting about, then they can feel as if other people are on their side and trying to be helpful, rather than just leaving them stuck in this very stressful atmosphere.
Dr. Keely Sikes Rollings 25:48
Yeah, yeah. I know, in the communities that where I work, there are lots of resources around new family, new couples. Who not I'm sorry, not new couples, couples who are newly parents. So mom and dad, mom and mom, dad, dad groups, parent groups were babies baby is just born. I'm not really aware in our communities of groups, for parents of teenagers, it doesn't seem like that's, I don't know, it doesn't seem like that's, maybe they're there. And I just am not aware of them. Or maybe they're not as socially acceptable in some way. But I feel like that transition from parenting a child to parenting a teen would be such an important time to have a group of adults to sit around and say, you know, just like many of us did, you know, boy, I'm so tired. My child just gave up his nap. And I'm like, dragging through my day. Right? When they were little or or boy, you know, does does is your baby fussing when you've introduced XY and Z food in the same way to say, Oh, what are you doing about rules about parties? And teenage years? Or what are what what are you thinking about? The the romantic scene for our teenagers? Or how are you handling this transition? Are there teen parenting support groups?
Phil Cowan 27:21
We're not aware again. I mean, there's an occasional one occasional community, but, but really, this is not something that happens recently. But the thing that I want to emphasize is that groups that do happen, are often attended just by moms. We about 90% of the people and parenting groups have at any age, others, and what we hope to do, is to try and change people's heads go after these groups to make sure that they are more, not just saying, oh, yeah, dads can come when when the group said, like, one o'clock in the afternoon. But, um, you know, we really want to recruit the dad. Now, whether the dads the biological parent, or, or the boyfriend, or whoever is parenting, the two people who are parenting this child, or more than two people are pairing this child come together. That's, that's really important. Well, you
Carolyn Cowan 28:26
see that the things we've been talking about, if we're only speaking to one parent, yeah, but there are several parenting figures for these children. You're not, you're not maximizing your potential to get them both on board. And to expect mothers to go home and tell them the father's what they learned to these groups, doesn't work very well. And there were people initially, who started the idea of working with fathers, but they didn't have mothers there. And those didn't work very well, either for the outcomes they wanted. Because if you have them together, you've got the relationship right in the room, right? And you can work with it. And it makes such a difference. And it's not only the groups are helpful, because you're not only hearing what your partner's saying, but you're hearing what someone else's partner is saying. And sometimes that makes it easier to have an aha moment. Yes. And to think these things through, but collectively,
Dr. Keely Sikes Rollings 29:29
again, it's focusing on the couple in parenting, not just on one parent, and in my experience, I've seen many a 57 year old woman in my office in a heterosexual couple who says, My kids are grown and leaving the nest and I'm exhausted from parenting. And there hasn't been a lot of shared responsibility. And in and now we have a couple of sheets. because there hasn't been really co really, truly co parenting.
Phil Cowan 30:07
Exactly. And one of the points I want to make is that, you know, people, often when we talk about this bad, bad, bad, bad, there's so many single moms and single dads that Yeah, that's true sort of, but not really, most women are parenting the child with somebody. And the somebody could be their mom or their dad, it could be their sister, it could be a boyfriend, it could be a girlfriend. Um, so there's somebody else involved, and the relationship between the parent that we're talking about, and the somebody else, that's what we're really focusing on. That's what's really important.
Dr. Keely Sikes Rollings 30:54
Yeah, yeah, I'd love to go, oh, Carolyn, did you want to add something, I'd love to go back to this idea of expressing expectations in the Couplehood. This this love skill of support is defined by love.com as hear and hold. Right, you have to be able to hear what the other person is feeling thinking. And then you have to hold it, not push it away, not disregard it. But how you write you have to physically and mentally hold it. And one of the things we go on to talk about is this idea of expressing expectations. Any thoughts about that piece as it relates to your research, both in couples, but also couples who are becoming parents,
Phil Cowan 31:51
especially in the groups that we did, which will from before the child was born first child was born to after? We did a lot of that's what the group was often about, it was talking about? What are your expectations? What about? Who's going to do what, who does want now around cleaning up and making decisions? And who's going to we actually ask them to fill out a questionnaire? Who do you think after the baby's who's going to look after the feeding and the washing of diapers and taking people to the doctor's, we found that the couples actually were fairly unrealistic thinking that it was going to be really shared. It tended not to be Yeah, the point also was that when they were more disappointed with their early expectations, they were feeling more depressed about it. Um, what we're trying to say is, it's not that if you can, in that kind of transition, really plan it out, and be right on top of it and have a plan. But the fact of discussing your expectations, before something happens, makes it less of a hot issue, when you're dealing with this thing that you're talking about.
Carolyn Cowan 33:19
Because then after the babies were born, what comes out a lot is that they kind of think they're going to be these modern couples, different than their parents, they're going to have a 50/50 split. And very rare, although in dual worker families, there are some who actually pull that off. And then they're just, they're both totally exhausted. But but the thing is that they can figure out what, what led to the fact that they didn't, they're not doing it, dividing the who does what, which is what we call the questionnaire as equally as they expected and why. So Kate earns more, she's staying home to nurse the baby for a little while. So she gives up her work outside the family more than he does. He's working to support the family, but she's at home, feeling unsupported because she has to do all the stuff with the babies and so on. But if they can understand where that's coming from, and maybe we can help them think about a small shift that would just feel a little more equitable and a little less burdensome that they can again think more consciously about why this is happening, what they're trying to do and how they might get closer to it. Yeah.
Phil Cowan 34:39
And, and and beyond just the does a lot of it when I have the feeling. This is not based on data that when couples get into a fight about whatever, that a lot of fighters about unsupported expectations, that is that one person expected something to happen. But they never said it. Yeah. And the other person often would say, well, if you'd only told me yes. So when you get into a fight a difference, something is happening like that. You might want to go back to a discussion of will, what were you expecting here? Yeah. And, and And what about that didn't happen?
Dr. Keely Sikes Rollings 35:32
You have researched and come up with some questions that partners can ask each other to make support more likely. I'd love to, to get to those. The first one is to ask, especially if you're very clear, not in the middle of a fight. These are conversations to have outside, have you left your wet towel on the floor again, right. The first one is, what's the issue that's worrying you most today.
Carolyn Cowan 36:05
It's a, it's a beautiful place to start. The most amazing room to work. What happens in these groups is that people say, in effect, you're interested in what my experience is. And that gives me time to think say it out loud and think think about it more consciously. So it's almost like being if you can stand it being a bit of an interviewer with your partner, about what what is this really about? And how is it affecting you, instead of getting all uptight and worried that this is going to turn into an insoluble argument?
Phil Cowan 36:46
I mean, couples do ask, what was your day like beer? Yeah, they do ask that. But that's, that could be a friend person ready to say, all of the good things or one good thing that happened? That's great to share that. But it, it doesn't usually unearth. What's the thing that's on their mind? That's worrying the most?
Dr. Keely Sikes Rollings 37:09
Yeah. Yeah. Great. And the second question?
Carolyn Cowan 37:14
Well, as we, as we framed it for you, it was, okay, so if I'm worried or depressed? How would you like me to react when you're talking to me about this, so that I can have some idea be some partners are just so afraid of conflict? Yeah, that they run away from it. And they don't take the time to ask more about what's really going on, they just get scared, it's going to become either a big fight or insoluble or somebody is going to walk out and slam the door. And that's not very helpful to to either of them. And it's certainly not helpful to the atmosphere in which their kids are listening in the other room hearing and getting frightened. And we know that that happens from talking with the kids as well. So again, it's one an unusual question.
Dr. Keely Sikes Rollings 38:11
Yeah. And what an important question, because sometimes Person A might want solutions, or sometimes they might want just comfort. And if if, and I know personally, in my own relationship, and strongly watching couples in my office, if person A just wants comfort, and person B comes with a litany of solutions, now we're off to the races.
Phil Cowan 38:34
Right? Yeah, we one of the most common pitfalls, where where conversations, get off the rails, where somebody wants to support somebody wants just to be heard. And the other person is saying, Well, you could do this, or you could do that. Yeah. And, and implicitly, and you're not doing this, and you're not doing that. So it's your fault. Yeah.
Dr. Keely Sikes Rollings 39:01
The third question you have is, what's the main thing you'd like to carry over from the families we grew up in? And what's the main thing you hope will do differently from the families we grew up in? We talked a little bit about that before and I love the idea of having sort of making it sort of a game and and again, outside of conflict, not while you're in conflict, but as a as a as a prevention.
Carolyn Cowan 39:28
Right, when you can do that, you know, before your first child comes along, or long after when you've got 123 kids. It's it's very informative and needs to be a bit exploratory. Because couples don't often do that in a sort of systematic way where they hear each other out about that night. They don't need to do it all in one conversation.
Dr. Keely Sikes Rollings 39:55
Yeah, I just had an aha moment because, as the children An age and change and their development and their stage changes, the things that are going on for the parents in their past history changes, right? So, so a conversation with my spouse about what it was like when he was a teenager is very different than a conversation we've had about what was it? Like when you were in a little in your house? Yeah. Yeah, so no evolving conversation around that. I love that. That's beautiful. Um, number four. Oh, go ahead, Carolyn.
Carolyn Cowan 40:29
I was just gonna say you were sort of fasting for humans on teenagers. What do you do when you can't get your teenager to talk to you? How are they fine? What are the plans are doing? I don't know. I mean, and if you don't understand that, in a lot of kids growing up and trying to get a little bit separate from their parents and become independent, that's part of the process, you just madder at them. So they pull away more. That doesn't do it doesn't help the relationship at all. So one, understanding that that may be part of ordinary development for young teenagers, and to if they're worried about risky behavior, you know, how to handle it, how to talk about it, how not to push them away, in effect, it can be very important, right?
Dr. Keely Sikes Rollings 41:22
And being on the same page with your partner, yes, that in their history, and take it even a step further into that supportive environment to have five or six other couples who are also parenting teens. How beautiful would that be?
Carolyn Cowan 41:36
Right? Right things like, Well, that was our problem with Richard all the time. Here's what we finally discovered worked a little better. And they they can begin to build models themselves have some other things they might try.
Dr. Keely Sikes Rollings 41:53
Beautiful. I'm watching our time, I want to make sure we get this number four. Would you like to read that question?
Phil Cowan 42:03
The question is, what's the thing you like best about how I relate to our kids? And what's one thing you hope I will change? I do, I want to preface that starting with something you like, before you get to the thing that is very important to me, when when when we were conducting some of these groups, and we would then debrief afterwards, I wanted to hear what went well. Before I wanted to hear Carolyn, talk about what didn’t.
Carolyn Cowan 42:37
We were doing these groups at the university and a big conference room. And it was the first time we were sort of inventing it as we went along. So we come out to the parking lot and get in the car to drive home. And my first reaction would be, you know, I really think that about about what didn't go so well, or what we might have done. And Phil ago. And it took us a long time to realize that that was the problem and our discussing it. He wanted to was Did something go well with i Okay. Yeah, we're gonna learn how to do that in a better way.
Phil Cowan 43:14
So that's part of the source of that, but in this case, having to do with with the kids, not just starting with the thing you disagree about. But is there anything and there almost always is? Yeah. That you like that you to say that you like about what I do.
Dr. Keely Sikes Rollings 43:32
Yeah, and one of the love skills that love.com focuses on his appreciation. So it allows you to bring appreciation into the Couplehood. I really appreciate it when you X y&z with the kids when you wrestle with them, or when you take them out on an outing, or whatever those things are? Yeah.
Phil Cowan 43:50
You know, in the growth that we do now, there is in 16 weeks long. In about 14 session, we have people write a letter of appreciation to a partner, and then reveal it. At the last meeting. It's a very touching.
Dr. Keely Sikes Rollings 44:09
Yeah, that's beautiful. Oh, that's really beautiful. i Yeah. And I think with modern technology and busy schedules, many of us don't write to each other anymore. It's sort of a lost, I think it's a lost art form for couples. Yeah, that's let's it let's end with the last question.
Carolyn Cowan 44:29
So the question as we framed it was outside of me or our family members, you know, how can you talk to when you're stressed out? One of the things we found early on when we were talking about with these couples, many couples with who was important in your life to you is that women, many of them could name 33456 People they could talk to the men could not come up Sometimes with anyone, or with more than one person they could talk to. So, you know, women were some of them, were doing a lot of processing of stuff. But the guys had nowhere to go. And again, I think that's why these groups are so powerful, because they're hearing each other. But they're hearing other guys and other gals talk about these things in a more natural way that says, This is all family related stuff. And it's relevant to fathers and mothers. So again, we didn't realize that this was so unusual. But we've discovered over time, especially reading what's out there in the research literature, or the intervention literature, that it's very unusual to have both men and women in these groups talking about these things.
Dr. Keely Sikes Rollings 45:52
Yeah, yeah. And the support that comes from that, from outside of the couple to the couple is, yeah, it just sounds like it's a tremendous help.
Carolyn Cowan 46:04
In humanizing, you know, they, they learn more about what really goes on in other couples, other families, and they don't feel so reticent to say, what's actually going on in our house or in our relationship? Because it doesn't seem so far out or, or off the off the charts. Yeah. And that's very, very relieving.
Dr. Keely Sikes Rollings 46:30
So in closing, any last advice for couples that might be listening today, you clearly have had 60, some years of marriage and working together, I will say, and worked with hundreds of couples and families, any closing thoughts around support how to create a supportive environment?
Phil Cowan 46:56
One one occurs to be glad you asked. It's, it's not easy to be supportive, when you're really upset, or upset, either with your partner or with by something else, something at work, that you need to carve out some time. It can be 10 minutes, it doesn't have to be a whole long date or dinner or something like that. Need to carve out some time to check in. Yeah, either with some of these questions, or just to check in with how are you doing in order to keep this connection alive? Because it's a struggle, it's a struggle, you know, people say relationships are work. Yeah. But it's because there's so many things going on, that you need to be more deliberate about it than we usually are. That's my thought.
Carolyn Cowan 47:56
We're just expecting so much of people in families these days. Yeah. And you know, clearly the both of the political and, but even in the larger world, some of the things that are going on are so stressful, that the more we can help people not have to run away from it or bury themselves, you know, under the blanket, because they simply can't face all that, the more we can help build supportive atmospheres, for the individual parents for their relationships together as couples, and especially for their relationships with their children, they really will see the difference in how their kids are behaving over time if they can pull it off. And that's what's been so exciting about this work with families in I mean, Mexican American, African American, white family, Asian, Asian American, we have groups like this going on in the UK, based out of London, and some in Canada, and some in other parts of the United States. And the results seem to be quite consistent if we can get them to come and make it a safe place to talk about these things. And stay so we know that it can work.
Dr. Keely Sikes Rollings 49:20
And it's wonderful. I thank you so much for your time today, for your decades of research on this really important topic. If people want to find out more about your work, where might they go?
Carolyn Cowan 49:34
They can email us at ccowan@berkeley.edu or pcowan@berkeley.edu.
Phil Cowan 49:48
We will be delighted to respond.
Dr. Keely Sikes Rollings 49:50
Oh, that's lovely. Thank you so much. And maybe I can get you to come back and talk with us some more. I'd love to have a full conversation with you about empathy, but that's maybe for next Time.
Phil Cowan 50:00
I that would be fine. I really enjoyed talking.
Carolyn Cowan 50:04
It’s been a pleasure talking with you. Thank you so much for having us. Yeah, take care. Thanks again.
Phil Cowan 50:10
Thank you.
Outro 50:15
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