Role of Vulnerability in Relationships With Dr. Leanne Campbell
Dr. Leanne Campbell is the Co-Director of the Vancouver Island Centre for EFT and Campbell & Fairweather Psychology Group and Co-Manages the Campbell and Fairwell Psychology Group. She is the Co-author of A Primer for Emotionally Focused Individual Therapy (EFIT): Cultivating Fitness and Growth in Every Client. She was trained by Dr. Sue Johnson and is a registered psychologist focusing on trauma for individuals, couples, and families. Dr. Campbell has worked with various levels of Court to provide psychological assessment reports for forensic, legal, and personal injury matters. She provides evaluations for The Canadian Forces Base, Veterans Affairs Canada, Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP), and other first responder services.
Dr. Campbell earned her doctorate in clinical psychology from the University of Ottawa. She is an active ICEEFT Certified Trainer, providing training, workbooks, and articles, and is a site coordinator for an Emotionally Focused Individual Therapy (EFIT) outcome study.
Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learn:
Dr. Leanne Campbell talks about her research at the University of Ottawa and defines vulnerability
The importance of feeling secure with boundaries in intimate relationships
In a relationship, how can you understand the feeling of vulnerability in yourself and in your partner?
Dr. Campbell discusses finding value in expressing your feelings
Dr. Campbell describes creating safety and learning to be vulnerable in your relationship
Why expanding your inner self builds confidence
Dr. Campbell shares a powerful lesson she learned from her graduate work at the university
Why the risk of revealing your vulnerability is worth it
In this episode…
When you feel vulnerable, how do you respond with positivity? In a relationship struggling with the idea of vulnerability, how do you find value in your feelings?
According to Dr. Leanne Campbell, rather than withdraw, you can move with and through emotions. Dr. Campbell’s experience has taught her the more we can see ourselves, the easier it is to have empathy and open up to the concept of vulnerability with your partner. Vulnerability is about allowing yourself to live fully and completely, so are you ready to discover and grow in your relationships?
On this episode of Our.Love Podcast, Jim Coan sits down with Dr. Leanne Campbell, Co-Director of the Vancouver Island Centre for EFT and Campbell & Fairweather Psychology Group, to discuss building confidence with vulnerability in your relationship. Dr. Campbell talks about the importance of finding safety and trust within yourself, the importance of finding value in exposing yourself, and understanding and growing authentic relationships that matter.
Resources Mentioned in this episode
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Episode Transcript
Intro 0:03
Welcome to Our.Love Podcast, where we share insights from top scientists and relationship experts on all things about love that are out of the box, refreshing and new. Now sit back, grab a cold drink or hot one if you prefer, and enjoy today's episode.
Jim Coan 0:25
So Leanne Campbell, so great to talk to you about a bunch of things, but I'm particularly interested in getting some help from you understanding the idea of vulnerability in relationships. I just want to Yeah, first I want to say, Wow, so you got your undergraduate degree at Simon Fraser?
Leanne Campbell 0:50
Yes, I did. Yes. West Coast.
Jim Coan 0:54
Yeah, it's so beautiful up there.
Leanne Campbell 0:57
Uh huh. It's beautiful. Yes,
Jim Coan 0:59
yeah. Yeah. And then you did your graduate work with Dr. Sue Johnson, whose own graduate work as sort of gave us Emotionally Focused Therapy.
Leanne Campbell 1:10
Yes, exactly. Yeah. So after I did my BA degree on the west coast of Canada, I traveled across the country midway across the country, to the University of Ottawa, where I was able to work with Sue, and all kinds of other wonderful professors, and really immerse myself in the world of clinical psychology. And unusually, so for a clinical psychologist, I think, statistics.
Jim Coan 1:37
Yeah, that's one of the things that I love about your biography. You've got this background in statistics and research methodology. And really teaching that stuff for quite a while, in addition to working closely with a therapy that really emphasizes emotional connection. It's not the sort of combo that you often see, although you might agree or disagree. I think that statistic statisticians get painted with a, with a broad too broad a brush.
Leanne Campbell 2:16
Yeah, yes. Well, I had an amazing professor at the University of Ottawa, Barbara Byrne, who really knew how to make statistics accessible. So I took every single statistics course that I could, and I did a big study for my PhD with factor analysis and structural equation modeling was powered. Yeah, exactly.
Jim Coan 2:43
And what was it like working with Sue in those years? Oh, my
Leanne Campbell 2:46
goodness, amazing. You know, Sue, you've worked with Sue. so charismatic. We were lined up, the hallway would be packed with people waiting for her supervision on the sixth floor of the venue building, and we would share cases, and I was lucky enough to be a therapist and some of those early studies, when we were using those little baby cassette tapes, and she Yeah, thing and her students were coding everything. Yeah, it was unbelievable. Six
Jim Coan 3:16
studies. Yes. Can Can I just launch right into asking you some questions about vulnerability, because obviously, it's one of the things that we really want to cover today. But also, it's been a particular fascination of mine, during the pandemic. Because, you know, there's been lots of questions for me about how to achieve it in a context where there's social distancing, and etc. But I think for our listeners, what we really need to do first off is just figure out what vulnerability is, what do we mean by vulnerability?
Leanne Campbell 4:03
And great question. Well, I think historically, the word vulnerability has had a bit of a bad rap, been associated with helplessness and powerlessness, and all kinds of negative connotations. But in our world, in the world of EFT, in particular, but social relations more generally. Vulnerability is really about being tuned into ourselves, being real, being authentic, and being able to look in not look out and really, really getting to know ourselves and in ways that allow us to grow and become more of who we can be.
Jim Coan 4:46
So yeah, I mean, that's Those all sound like big deals to me, like, you know, sort of the life well lives. But I wonder if there's some sort of simple or ideas that overlap here like authenticity? Honesty, true. Do you think that vulnerability involves putting yourself at risk?
Leanne Campbell 5:18
Yes, absolutely. So that those old terms are not, you know, they're not inaccurate. It is true that when when we put ourselves at risk, we sometimes are in places of helplessness. And yeah, it does. And if we think about social relations, and certainly the world that I've lived in around therapy and couples therapy in particular, it really is about helping people to take risks in relationships, that allows them to grow personally, and relationally. And become more of who they can be in their most important relationships.
Jim Coan 5:55
Yeah, but why not just why not help people to be, you know, more individually resilient, more, more, sort of, you know, stronger? And what is this going to do for them to try and to sort of reveal themselves as having weaknesses or needs that might not be met? Or desires that might make them feel ridiculous, for example? I mean, what is, you know, that sounds scary to me.
Leanne Campbell 6:27
Right? Yes. Well, indeed, Dr. Cohn, you better than me know that we are wired for connection. And we do a lot better together than separate. But, you know, it's, of course, also the case that many of us have either either lived in contexts that are unsafe, or growing up in contexts that are unsafe, or maybe there's an intergenerational pattern of a lack of safety in relationships. And we know based on Attachment science, that there's a finite number of ways to cope with a lack of safety. In our social worlds, we either tend to shut down, Nam out, lash out, or some combination of both. For those of us who have been lucky enough to grow up in safe worlds and live in safe worlds, it's much easier for us to move with and through emotion, to tune into our vulnerabilities to know ourselves to share ourselves and to risk being connected.
Jim Coan 7:30
And yet, because of those experiences that some of us have had, growing up in unsafe conditions, we've learned on the one hand, that we need to be more self-sufficient. And that can mean less authentic, right, that can mean, you know, managing, you know, cultivating, or designing a self to project to the world that may be very different from the self that's inside. That's on the one hand, on the other hand, we might be encouraged to do that, because that's really what we need to do. Right. Right. So what changes when we try to have an intimate relationship?
Leanne Campbell 8:22
Yeah, well, I think it really is all about safety. And it's about boundaries, as well. So there are times when it's best for us, it's most adaptive for us, to put a certain self, to put forward a certain self to the world, in specific kinds of relationships or contexts, such as business potentially, and, and, but in our intimate relationships, in the in the relationships that matter most to us and their relationships where we can tune into ourselves with the understanding that our partner will be accessible, responsive and engaged will be there for us, it's much better for us to risk is much better for us to risk and being all that we can be in those relationships in a way that allows us to grow and allows us to take risks in these other contexts like business and education and all kinds of other areas of our lives. Knowing that we have a safe place to fall knowing that, you know, we have someone to turn to if things don't go so well.
Jim Coan 9:32
I mean, I believe you. But I'm feeling maybe maybe I'm a little bit afraid myself. So I'm, I'm feeling like how does one move into a relationship and start feeling safe enough to be vulnerable?
Leanne Campbell 10:00
Well, I think it's two-sided really?
Jim Coan 10:07
No, it's complicated. It's two-sided, such as something I
Leanne Campbell 10:10
can do. Now. It's something that you do together. Absolutely
Jim Coan 10:14
great. Or Sure. Yeah, that figures. So what? So, so if I'm going to risk being vulnerable with my partner, first of all, I'm still not totally sure. I understand why that's a good thing. Why I shouldn't just, you know, bring my best self to it. Because being vulnerable maybe means showing my partner, something that's embarrassing, because it's like, most people would agree, it's not that great. You know? So that's, that's one problem. So, you know, I still don't know whether I can do that. But now I have to depend on my partner some how to help me do that. How does that happen?
Leanne Campbell 11:09
Wow. Okay, so the thing you're asking is, If I reveal myself to my partner, I mean, that is that that is the million-dollar existential question, right? If I reveal myself to you, will you love me? Will you respect me? Will you reject me? Yeah, that's what makes it scary. That's what people are afraid of, of course. But what I've seen over and over and over again, in my therapy world for the past three decades, is that it's the exact opposite. It ironically, so the more that we share our flaws and our insecurities, and our uncertainties, the more our partners love us, the more they support us, and the more that we can risk being all that we can be. But it is, you know, it's it's a leap of faith, for sure.
Jim Coan 12:02
It's a leap of faith. It's a leap of faith, and maybe help us understand what it looks like to be vulnerable. Right? How does it I mean, I can imagine, for example, say, you know, I grew up in an unsafe environment, let's say, I'm desperately afraid, or let's just say I'm an average North American male. And I'm deathly afraid of female anger. As many are. This is one of the things I found with John Gottman is that female angers just too many men would rather be boiled alive. And there's something I want to say about something I'm hurt about, but I'm desperately afraid that you're going to get angry with me. So I just don't say it. And I grimly march along through our relationship for, you know, five years just feeling this. What if I, what if I say it and you get angry at me? My worst fear realized?
Leanne Campbell 13:11
Wow, part of vulnerability is really tuning into ourselves. And being curious about what it is about my partner's anger that makes it scary, then that makes me want to recoil and withdraw? And I'm not I'm not risk that. Is it about me feeling like I'm not good enough? Or is it me feeling rejected? Or is it me, whatever the case may be. And if I actually tuned into myself, and was curious about that, and actually identified what it is, that makes us so frightening, if I, if I imagined myself sharing that with my partner, then maybe I could risk actually disclosing it.
Jim Coan 14:01
So you can imagine it but you added something that's fascinating to me, which is not just taking the risk of being vulnerable, but also taking the mindset of curiosity about about not only my own vulnerability, and the thing I'm vulnerable about, but about the situation that then unfolds. When I express my vulnerability, in a sense, this is like testing what happens when I'm vulnerable. It reminds me of an old Albert Ellis of all people story where he's first developing his Rational Emotive therapy and he says, You know, I was too afraid to ask anyone out on a date. So I just started going out and asking them, and I didn't catch on fire. Like I thought I would.
Leanne Campbell 14:53
Nice. Yeah. That's right.
Jim Coan 14:57
So one thing that might happen If you express your vulnerability, your partner gets angry. And then you're still sitting there not bursting in flames. And now you have some grist for your mill to work on with with each other. Especially, especially if you're lucky enough to be sitting there with Leanne Campbell.
Leanne Campbell 15:25
Yeah, exactly. It's always much easier when you have a third party in the room who can help manage the conversation,
Jim Coan 15:32
right? Because when, when you're being vulnerable, and emotions are heightened. I don't know if you realize this, but blood is literally going to leave your proof. This is the international symbol for blood leaving your prefrontal cortex, it's a blood is gonna start leaving your prefrontal cortex, and you're not going to be able to think so in a sense, I've told Sue this before to you, Leanne, are this hypothetical couple, I think we're gonna continue with this therapy session, this hypothetical couple, where he's trying to express something he's he's upset about, and he's worried about her anger. They're both emotional, so they can't use their prefrontal cortex. So you are their surrogate prefrontal cortex. You're going to carry that that burden for a little while. It's a beautiful thing. But let's can we flip it around a little bit? Now? I'm now I'm the wife. Okay, why I did that? Excellent. I don't look like it. But I, I'm, I'm angry. He just said something. That was really scary for him to say. And he was right, pissed me off. But I've been talking with Leanne, and I'm thinking, okay, vulnerability is what we want. What do I do? How do you teach someone to respond to vulnerability?
Leanne Campbell 17:00
Well, I would ask you, what happens in the second, in a split second? Before you get got angry? What happened? When your partner turned to you, with those water-filled eyes and shared with you his fear? What happened in that split second, then just in that moment, what happened inside of you in that moment, so I would help her help you to tune into the vulnerable part of you. And when we can help our part, couples partners meet each other at that level, everything changes the world changes in that moment. But yeah, that's right. At the outset, when these patterns are well entrenched, and it's a millisecond before we go back to anger.
Jim Coan 17:55
This is so fascinating because what you're saying is you're not advising, you're not giving me as the receiving spouse, some kind of manual for the right way to receive a vulnerable message. You're basically asking me to be vulnerable too
Leanne Campbell 18:15
exactly. That's how I decided. Exactly. That's right.
Jim Coan 18:22
And so we both start becoming vulnerable with each other. Yeah. It's a good thing, you're in the room? Because that sounds like some pretty scary business. Little, a lot of emotion could be happening.
Leanne Campbell 18:40
Yes, at times. But vulnerability, I mean, maybe we can even think about it on a continuum. In terms of how it's expressed, it can be very quiet. Initially, it could just be about making eye contact, about, you know, tuning into one another, across from each other at the dinner table. Or, um, yeah.
Jim Coan 19:07
That mean tuning into each other.
Leanne Campbell 19:11
I think being present with ourselves and with our partners in a way that allows us to know ourselves and know our partners, really, that's what vulnerability is all about. And that's why vulnerability is the fertile ground for growth. And it's when we tune into our partners, we see ourselves through their eyes, and we get to know ourselves better.
Jim Coan 19:42
Oh, my God. That sounds terrifying. The the, you know what you reminds me of? Sorry, I'm not saying all the right things, all the wrong things. Here so it's true. You have children.
Leanne Campbell 19:58
Yes I do.
Jim Coan 19:59
So you have had Add yourself reflected to you. That's right. From the way that your children? Absolutely, sometimes, sometimes not saying all the time, maybe more for some of us than others. Sometimes that's a little disturbing. Because you see yourself in a way that is not so flattering, right? Yes, that it strikes me that that must be part of vulnerability, too. If we're if we're taking vulnerability seriously. Do we have to? Do we have to learn? In a sense, I don't want to be too flowery about this, but to, to love ourselves, despite being, you know, being revealing, or discerning maybe for the first time in the context of our relationship, some of some qualities that we're really ashamed of.
Leanne Campbell 21:04
Yeah, and maybe, maybe it's really about accepting our humanity, that we all have insecurities, flaws, uncertainties, places where we get stuck feel stuck?
Jim Coan 21:20
That, yeah. I mean, I think you've just actually touched on a huge part of the value of being vulnerable. Right? That with practice being vulnerable, you can actually start accepting your own humanity.
Leanne Campbell 21:43
Right? Exactly. Yeah. And the more that we can see ourselves, the easier it is to have empathy for others.
Jim Coan 21:52
The more we can see ourselves, the easier it is to have empathy for others, or put that on a t-shirt. Yes. What happens? What happens to a relationship that struggles too much with being vulnerable? Or they can't be vulnerable with each other? But is it what happens to that relationship?
Leanne Campbell 22:22
Well, so I was saying earlier that we know based on Attachment science, that there's a finite number of ways that we manage threat, we either lash out, we numb out, or we do some combination of both, or, potentially, we move with and through emotion, we tune into our vulnerabilities. So in relationships that are distressed one, or both partners are either numbing out lashing out or some combination of both. And sometimes that has a history in the relationship, as well as a history that predates the relationship. And that makes it hard to connect, it makes it hard. You know, the great attachment scientist John Bowlby tells us that it I lost my train of thinking there, um, tells us that Sarah,
Jim Coan 23:23
was that amount. Yeah, you know,
Leanne Campbell 23:27
or you do some combination of both. And, and it so in the in the context of couple relationships and distressed relationships, we're seeing that and a common pattern that you're aware of, based on Gottman is research and certainly, Sue Johnson's research has shown the same is that oftentimes there's one partner in the relationship that tends to withdraw. And the other then the more that partner withdraws. And more than the other partner, the angry woman that you described earlier, is a common theme that we see and tends to get angry. And you know, and the way that this partner begins to reach to the other leaves the other person feeling, not good enough, not measuring up, not okay in the relationship, and the more that that person feels not okay, the more that person wants to shrink and withdraw and retreat even further. And more and more distance ensues in the relationship, and oftentimes, by the time they come to see us not so much now, as in earlier years, because I think there's a lot more education and information out in the world, that those patterns are well entrenched. And those partners really aren't even looking at each other. They don't make eye contact. They don't share that vulnerability is is very much absent in the relationship. There is no safety.
Jim Coan 24:58
There's no safety There's no safety. And so it seems to me that vulnerability and safety are two, two sides of the same coin.
Leanne Campbell 25:09
Yes, definitely.
Jim Coan 25:12
Wow. So if we're going to choose to be vulnerable with each other, there's a sense in which we have to choose to be safe with each other. Yes? And would you say that that's maybe the real hurdle here?
Leanne Campbell 25:30
Yes, um, and, um, I think the example that we spoke about earlier, um, illustrates it well, that at the beginning, I mean, it's like anything, we don't feel safe, we take a leap of faith by risking a tiny bit at a time. So initially, it might be, as I described earlier, that this person, this angry woman that you described, tunes in to what she's feeling in the moment when her partner makes contact in a different way from a place of vulnerability. And, and that begins to challenge her template for a lack of safety, and a lack of and feeling alone in the relationship.
Jim Coan 26:18
It is fascinating to me to watch you guys do this therapy. I've seen multiple iterations of this over the years from your training tapes and things. And one of the things that I'm the experimentalists in me is always just completely blown away by is when you are talking when in the early stages of therapy when you're working with a partner, who's having a hard time expressing vulnerability. And you have them talking to you, Leanne, right. About the vulnerable thing while the partner listens. And then you do this magic trick. This, I don't know how else to put it because I'm not an EFT therapist. Right? You do this magic trick where you have you say, Okay, now turn and face your partner. And just tell her what you told me. I want you to help me understand this. Because for those who've never seen this, I've never been through EFT before, and I highly recommend it. What happens is very often, while the Partner A is talking with Leanne, the other partners, Partner B is just sitting there, quietly listening. Then Leanne says, Can you turn and face your partner and say the same thing that you just said, the information has not changed. There's nothing that's changed about the information. But when partner is now talking to Partner B, suddenly, there's tears and emotion and just just outpoint that's like some kind of thunderclap of psychological substance is happening in the room. You have Yulian have have created for them a moment of intimacy through the medium of vulnerability and safety, that they haven't maybe experienced. Much, or maybe ever. Yes. And the result is absolutely incredible.
Leanne Campbell 28:36
Yeah, it is. It's amazing. And yeah, it's an it's an incredible privilege to witness it. And yeah, you described it well. And, and, and then we help them to understand that they in fact, created it. And we help them to understand how they did it, so that they can begin to generalize these baby gains, these tiny gains between sessions and over the course of therapy. And yes, people can absolutely learn to do this, people can learn to be vulnerable in their most important relationships. And when there's energy in the relationship, which you know, from the garden and research, then that happens quite readily that people really do you know, when I when I have the partner turn to the other is with the knowing that that person has an investment in the relationship and that's what makes the magic.
Jim Coan 29:41
Interesting. Interesting. But there's also something about turning them to face each other. Yes, there's some there's something in this moment of vulnerability that's not just about the content of what is being said. It's about, you know what it reminds me of? It reminds me of my cats. And I'll tell you what I mean, because that's kind of silly. My cat loves to be scratched on the most vulnerable part of his body right here near his neck. And when cats are really feeling lovey and safe, safe, they roll in their back and expose their neck and you scratch their neck. Why do they like that so much? Well, people like Steve Porges, and others have have looked into how animals communicate ritualistically and these are, these are little rituals, right? Little rituals that mammals have for showing someone else that I am happy to be vulnerable with you. And stick sticking my neck out. And so it's it made me wonder when when you have the partner turn to the other and say the words that they just got finished speaking, they're doing something else they're doing, they're sticking their neck out a little bit. And so vulnerability seems to me not just to be a risk, but also a kind of offering a kind of gift to your partner. That when you're when you're vulnerable with your partner, you're sending a different kind of message than when you're not vulnerable. You're saying, I trust you. Does that seem right?
Leanne Campbell 31:40
Yes. And I think you're also saying you matter to me. And I love the wider. Yeah, I'm giving myself to you. Because you matter to me. And that's what also what makes it so scary. Because the way that you view me. And the way that you respond to me, is going to impact the way that I feel about myself.
Jim Coan 32:03
Oh, wow. So when I, when I gift you my trust and vulnerability, my authentic self that can change you that can change how you feel how you think, in some ways who you are, because you're you you're being sort of taught how to regard yourself. Yes. Yeah, I'm ready. Let's go. Let's go. Let's do it. Let's do a session. I want to do it sounds good. Do you think that, um, being vulnerable? is then a skill that you can learn over time with just with practice?
Leanne Campbell 33:00
I, I want to immediately say yes,
Jim Coan 33:03
yeah, but I noticed some hesitation. I hope you don't mind me saying,
Leanne Campbell 33:07
Yes, um, I think the word skill feels a bit off to me, because I think that vulnerability is not really about building competence. It's about building confidence. And, and really building the self-expanding ourselves, know, beginning to know ourselves better, risking and stretching ourselves, it's really much more than skills. It really is about allowing us to grow and be all that we can be. And it's the relationships that matter most to us that support that. That fuel.
Jim Coan 33:56
Yeah, during the pandemic, you know, when so many of us had to be socially isolated. One of the questions I got the most from people was, you know, how can we achieve connection? Without being in the same room together? How can we do that this zoom thing doesn't seem to be working out very well. And I'm wondering if, if that came up for you in your work at all, with with clients or with between your clients and couples that you worked with?
Leanne Campbell 34:34
Yeah. It's a great question. And well, there's a couple of thoughts. One is that I've been impressed and amazed at how powerful zoom can be in terms of allowing us to tune in to one another, and especially, and when we are open and vulnerable. It's incredible to me how much we can transmit across these screens. But where it's really become problematic for our client base is I like to work a lot with veterans and active military and a lot of people that are quite isolated. And I've had the great pleasure and honor to build a few beautiful clinics on Vancouver Island. And so a big part of what we provide when people come to our offices to see us is this incredible staff and a welcoming environment, and people bring their service dogs and all kinds of things. So people are really missing that aspect of things in terms of the clinical work. And also some of the group and groups that have been available and that kind of thing that, yes, that I think, yeah, Zoom doesn't replace some of this. And in a couple of context, working on Zoom only works if people are in the same room, because we really do want them to be able to touch each other, to look into each other's eyes with some proximity. And the intensity of the emotion, of course, is to some degree, and diminished across the screen.
Jim Coan 36:17
Yeah, yeah. I'm glad to hear that you've been doing it, especially with military families. You know, I grew up in a military family. And I know very well, that sort of, I mean, I guess the nicest way to put it is that sort of stoic, you know, attitude that allows you to just press on through the pain, whatever it is. It is it is, you know, not exactly a military value to be vulnerable. So that is a lot to work with, lady. I don't know how you do that. Yeah,
Leanne Campbell 36:58
I love it. And again, it's step by step, moment by moment. And, you know, sometimes we see people who have been living in their cars in the woods, and very, very isolated, and coming to see us is a huge leap of faith in terms of vulnerability, and I often tell a story about one of the first clients that I ever worked with at the University of Ottawa, who came to see me at the beginning of a two-year internship. And, you know, what I was starting to say earlier is, you know, Bowlby would talk about our protection becoming our prison. So when we have learned down, and to non-GMO, and all of those things, of course, it restricts our capacity to connect and to grow in connection. And so I was a new graduate student, just starting my internship. And if you kind of can imagine what this would have been like, for this man, we'll call him Brad, that wasn't his name, of course, he imagine what it took for him to travel on a bus, a city bus, across the city, walk up the stairs of the van, a building, and to the university, a busy place, as you know, lots of people milling about the Putin truckstop. And then he'd have to get into the elevator up the sixth floor, to where the clinic was just down from Sue Johnson's office. And when I met him, he was wearing a sports coat and a hat, and swimming goggles, and earplugs. And that was the way that he could protect himself from any kind of contact in the world. So it was so brave with him still makes me emotional, actually, thank you about him so brave, to come and meet with me. And initially, it was hard for him to share his narrative to share his story. He had moved across Canada to major cities hoping to escape his past but of course, it kept following him. So he said, This time, I want to do this, I want to I want to do this. And so the initial way that I got to know him, and his story was through editorials, he would write to the newspaper and then exchange right to himself. And that was the way that he began to encounter his own vulnerability to risk revealing himself to another. And, and, and then we looked at themes, and they were themes of anger and danger and relationships. And over time, he took off his goggles and began to make eye contact, but just a little bit at a time, kind of squinted his eye and just looked out of the corner of his eye. Eventually, he took out his earplugs, and eventually, he started to ride the bus without the goggles and one-year plank, and eventually he joined to a club, and then eventually he, he actually got a volunteer job at a cafeteria. So. So it's an I think, poignant example of how when we are shut off from ourselves and others, he talked, when the most poignant thing that will for sure make me emotional, is that when we started out, he said that he, he would cover his mirror with a towel, that he didn't want to see himself and over, and that his room felt like a coffin, his apartment felt like a coffin, he felt dead. But as he began to encounter his vulnerability, he started to live, this is what vulnerability is all about, allowing us to live fully and completely in and to find ourselves and grow ourselves in the relationships that matter most. And, of course, that's not the therapeutic context. But in some cases, that's where it starts. In other cases, it starts with dating in adolescence, or in young adulthood, or, at some other time in our lives when we can find a safe Father, to turn to and to grow with.
Jim Coan 41:19
Wow. That's some real courage on your part to Yeah. To graduate student to, to work in on a case. So that's so intense, right out of right, right at the beginning of your career and, and to because it's, it seems to me that someone's going to be like that, when there's some serious emotions going on, underneath, and some real serious fears. But you also make me think of the old phrase, you know, fear is not the absence. Our courage is not the absence of fear. You know, that. That yes, this I kind of want to replace vulnerability here. Correct. Courage, courage is, you know, it's not the the absence of vulnerability. It's its courage seems to be a big part of what's what's going on with vulnerability. You You made that clear when you said, that's really brave of him to come all that way. A while while feeling so frightened. Yeah, I'm curious. A little bit. I hope you don't mind me my asking. But I'm curious a little bit about your own vulnerability journey.
Leanne Campbell 42:37
My own vulnerability journey?
Jim Coan 42:39
Yeah.
Leanne Campbell 42:40
Yes. Wow. Um, it's a good question. I think, um Well, I don't even know where to start. What are you curious about?
Jim Coan 42:57
We're stuck. We can start in grad school. You know, hell yes. Okay. Yeah, you're learning, you're learning about these these things. You've obviously been a successful student. You know, you're you're, you've got a lot of lot going for you. And you're now in a situation where you're working with a rising superstar. And because she's right out of grad school at that point,
Leanne Campbell 43:20
yes. Yes. Yeah.
Jim Coan 43:27
Right. At that same time, I was just starting to work with Gottman. Right. And, and so you're having to learn a lot about how to be a clinician, which is no easy feat. And I'm wondering what kinds of of challenges you remember, learning to put yourself at risk in that role?
Leanne Campbell 43:52
Yeah. Well, you know, again, it's all about safety. And I had the good fortune of being in a cohort that many of the professors talked, described as a good wine, that this was the year. So we really were so lucky to be a mom, an amazing group of peers. And at the time, a really incredible set of faculty Sue being one of them, of course, and then others who had worked with pearls and with chebula. And, you know, all of these amazing opportunities. And for sure, it was terrifying. You know, when I first met this man, I would take my tapes into a room full of other graduate students and the professor and you know, risk being vulnerable risk showing, revealing myself as a new therapist, but it was amazing, and it was the best learning and it's another great I think, illustration of how we can grow when we allow ourselves to be vulnerable, because then we can learn Learn, we can listen, and, and grow ourselves. So for me, it was amazing. And I learned so much from that client, but from so many, you know, after meeting him, I just thought, I just want to work with trauma, and loss and grief. And this is a world that helps me to understand development. And what happens when development goes well. And when it doesn't go so well. And I really can feel like I can make a difference. So that's what I'm focused on for the last 30 years.
Jim Coan 45:34
Yeah, it's a great story. It's a great story. And I love how you highlight that part of what gave you the strength. You know, and it's funny, it's always so poetic, because we, you know, we started out the conversation, agreeing that many people equate vulnerability with weakness, but what gave you the strength to be vulnerable, to be courageous with your potential for failure, bad decisions, goofy mistakes, whatever it was, which was partly derived from your incredible cohort of people who were there, to be vulnerable with you, and to be supportive of you. So many things I've learned, you know, I'm, I've got lots to learn still about all of this stuff. And I've learned that responding to vulnerability isn't some kind of recipe it's really joining in with being vulnerable. That vulnerability is about being brave. That vulnerability is about being authentic, and about respecting yourself and having love and, and, and care for yourself. This is a I feel like I have an expanded view of vulnerability and its role in our relationships. And I'm really, really grateful to you.
Leanne Campbell 47:08
Same, I'm grateful to you. Thank you for having me on your show. you've contributed to this amazing field.
Jim Coan 47:17
Well, I try one of these days. These days, I might I might get to be interviewed by by you.
Leanne Campbell 47:24
That would be fantastic. Yeah. Great. Super.
Jim Coan 47:32
Thanks so much again.
Outro 47:37
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